JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Quoted by maglomanic:
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Alot of guys at PakDef pointed to Selex Vixen AESA as a posibility. Now noone said that Pakistan SHALL select that radar. We are not even sure if the avionics package will include a radar or not.
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According to Pakdef, SELEX itself is offering its Vixen radar to LCA, JF-17, T-50 etc. So, Pakistan has to select it as the offer is present.

They were also telling that since SELEX is a consortium of Gallileo Aveonica, which was making the Grifo-7 (specially for the JF-17), there was a high chance that they shall get the Vixen for the JF-17.

Admins, I request disciplinary action against member vincelee.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Admin, I request that SOMEONE shut Indianfighter up and properly educate him in

1) technical matters

2) scope of debate

3) modern history

Re: JF-17: New Pics

No Yue, thats your job. The whole idea of internet military forums is that all sort of "information" is passed on and if they are contradicting themself, then you DISCUSS over the matter to sort it out. But it all must be done in respectfull, mature and civilized manners without hurting anyones feelings. Pointless arguing and meaningless depate is childrens clash, done in the sandboxes over matters like "my mom makes better food than your mom..." . But as we all are adults (or least trying hard to be one... ) we should do better....

And Yue, I wont like ban someone (mean: give him his third warning) over peny matters like these but my tolerance wont last forever, and i cannot speak behalf of other mods...

Re: JF-17: New Pics

any can tell me the unit cost of a: JF-17
JH-7,J-7,J-8,A-5 .

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Indianfighter said:

Quoted by maglomanic:
___________________
Alot of guys at PakDef pointed to Selex Vixen AESA as a posibility. Now noone said that Pakistan SHALL select that radar. We are not even sure if the avionics package will include a radar or not.
___________________
According to Pakdef, SELEX itself is offering its Vixen radar to LCA, JF-17, T-50 etc. So, Pakistan has to select it as the offer is present.

They were also telling that since SELEX is a consortium of Gallileo Aveonica, which was making the Grifo-7 (specially for the JF-17), there was a high chance that they shall get the Vixen for the JF-17.

Admins, I request disciplinary action against member vincelee.

Click to expand...

Indian fighter, it'll be great if you would use quote tag instead of lines (which makes your posts hard to read for me). I would appreciate it.

Again, no one said Paksitan SHALL (as if certain) get Selex. People were just trying to make a connection.
About the SELEX/Gallileo Aveonica consortium, it's correct. You can visit Selex's website and it also mentions Gallileo as partners.

Look at the very first line.

But then it's all possibilities and probabilities nothing certain.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

I don't understand the obsession with people regarding AESA as if an AESA radar was simply going to be better then say....an advanced phase dopplar radar. The main advantage of AESA is it ability to multi-track targets often going into the 20+ range, and its ability to differentiate between clutter and foe, therefore improving the A2A and A2G abilities similteniously.

In refering to Fc-1's current radar, i would say that it is just right until a better AAM such as an Sd-10 upgrade becomes avalible, although i must say that the multi-track ability needs to be improved as well...(one is not enough)

The current Grifo S-7 should certainly be able to let the Fc-1 stand up to most aircrafts with out missiles such as the Meteor or the ramjet r-77. The Fc-1 would come into firing range at almost the exact range of its indian counterparts. Although the mig-29k and Su-30mki's radars have longer range, it should be remebered that both aircrafts have large RCS for a fighter while the Fc-1 would certainly have one <3 (seeing as how the mig-21 achieved 3m squared with almost no composities)

I'm not saying that the Fc-1 surpasses, or is even comparable to the Mig-29K or the Su-30mki, i am simple implying that the Fc-1 could probrably achieve a fair attrition rate insynche with its costs.

Regarding the costs of the aircrafts, although there have been many sales of such aircrafts in the past, however the records are faily hard to get. Also, you must factor in the inflation/deflation rate of national currencies, which is fairly hard to do unless you got a few hours to burn......

Re: JF-17: New Pics

The Sweds are boosting that the Gripen dataling is superior to anything anyone fighter has today or tommorow. But if you ask them how. They'll say its classified.
But heres what I have noticed about the Fc-1. It was not orginally diesgned to be BVR capable. Back in 1996 before the MKI deal FC-1 wasn't suppose to have BVR...well in the first batch anyways. So giving it BVR now means it has a small nose diameter. The obvois choice for Pakistan is AESA. Plust it could shoot down some missile with that capability.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

xihaoli said:

I don't understand the obsession with people regarding AESA as if an AESA radar was simply going to be better then say....an advanced phase dopplar radar. The main advantage of AESA is it ability to multi-track targets often going into the 20+ range, and its ability to differentiate between clutter and foe, therefore improving the A2A and A2G abilities similteniously.

In refering to Fc-1's current radar, i would say that it is just right until a better AAM such as an Sd-10 upgrade becomes avalible, although i must say that the multi-track ability needs to be improved as well...(one is not enough)

The current Grifo S-7 should certainly be able to let the Fc-1 stand up to most aircrafts with out missiles such as the Meteor or the ramjet r-77. The Fc-1 would come into firing range at almost the exact range of its indian counterparts. Although the mig-29k and Su-30mki's radars have longer range, it should be remebered that both aircrafts have large RCS for a fighter while the Fc-1 would certainly have one <3 (seeing as how the mig-21 achieved 3m squared with almost no composities)

I'm not saying that the Fc-1 surpasses, or is even comparable to the Mig-29K or the Su-30mki, i am simple implying that the Fc-1 could probrably achieve a fair attrition rate insynche with its costs.

Regarding the costs of the aircrafts, although there have been many sales of such aircrafts in the past, however the records are faily hard to get. Also, you must factor in the inflation/deflation rate of national currencies, which is fairly hard to do unless you got a few hours to burn......

Click to expand...

too many advantages of AESA over PESA and over PD radar.

faster scanning speed
LPI --> stealthiness
better concurrent engagements
better concurrent tracking

As I said, FC-1's will use KLJ-10 in the beginning. KLJ-10 supports 4 concurrent engagements of SD-10 according to a brochure in the Zhuhai airshow.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

jatt said:

The Sweds are boosting that the Gripen dataling is superior to anything anyone fighter has today or tommorow. But if you ask them how. They'll say its classified.
But heres what I have noticed about the Fc-1. It was not orginally diesgned to be BVR capable. Back in 1996 before the MKI deal FC-1 wasn't suppose to have BVR...well in the first batch anyways. So giving it BVR now means it has a small nose diameter. The obvois choice for Pakistan is AESA. Plust it could shoot down some missile with that capability.

Click to expand...

The fact that the Russians offered Kopyo-F for the FC-1 still puts the diameter of the radar to be around 600-700mm. That's about the same as the MiG-21bis or Bison. Which also puts it around the APG-67 class or bigger. Some of the specs asked for the FC-1's radar including tracking as much as 100km.

Actually the FC-1 has more room for radar growth, than let's say, the F-20 Tigershark.

Super 7 was supposed to have some BVR in the first place. That was why the original plans got rid of the round inlet nose for a conventional radome. The real Super 7 has morphed into the FTC-2000 trainer, while the FC-1 has evolved into an entirely new plane.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

something new and interesting:
在中华潜水5年有余，首次上浮，冒得不好大家见谅。
今晚（2006.3.2）19：00，成都611所所长杨伟一行来到清华大学做了“未来战争对战斗机的性能要求”（具体记不太清楚了）的报告兼人才招聘大会，作为军事爱好者，我也特意去听了一下，虽然杨所长表示碍于纪律，不能涉及机密，但是在3个小时左右的时间里，也有一些平时公开的军事刊物上较少见的内容，凭我的回忆总结几点，既然是转述杨所长报告的内容，也就不会涉及机了：
Interview Yang Wei, the 611 president - conducted on March 2nd
1.枭龙04号战机（大边条，新型进气道）一两个月内即将首飞；
04 will fly in 1 or 2 months
2.新枭龙战机座舱现代化程度高，一平三下，可实现双手操作，枭龙战机应客户要求（巴基斯坦），最强调的是航程，航程达1800km,转场航程3000km，对于九吨级的战机是非常难得的；
04's cockpit is fairly modern with 1 HUD and 3 MFD. Due to PAF's request, the range is 1800 and ferry range is 3000KM. These are high for a 9 tonne fighter
3.杨所长对苏-27的操作系统评价不高，不能双手不离杆操作，他说：苏-27的飞行员要发射一枚导弹，需要左手在控制面板上按6次，同时飞行员还要做剧烈的机动动作；
Yang does not have high opinion of su-27's interface system, su-27 pilot needs to press control board 6 times with left hand to fire an AAM, at the same time, he/she still needs to make manuvers
4.04号机采用的新型进气道技术是在美国X-32/35（当时还在竞争）的启发下，由4个年轻科技人员通过模型、计算、大量风洞试验逐渐掌握的（这里向他们致敬），采用该种进气道可使飞机的推力增加3%，也就是100多公斤的推力，这也是非常了不起的；
04's new intake uses X-32/35 development, uses 4 young technician to do the calculation and such, this intake increases the fighter's thrust by 3% or 100kg+ thrust
5.我国的电传操作系统是目前除了美国F-22/35以外最先进的，并且创造了一项世界第一：世界上第一种采用了电传操作系统至今还没有摔飞机的战机（歼10?），就连F-22也摔过，F-18摔得最多，呵呵；
(can I get a little help help here with 电传操作系统?)
claims that the electric control system (FBW?) is very advanced. It's the first such plane to have not crashed. Even F-22 has crashed before.
6. 杨所长也提到了国外的几种飞机：俄罗斯的四代机1.42已经停止发展，目前在搞一种小飞机，他们内部资料里有；日本F-2每架造价超过1亿美元，目的是发展本国的航空工业；印度LCA，受制于美国的电传操作系统和发动机技术，目前很艰难；美国F-22因造价太高，国会限制军方购买数量，F-35原定单价 3000万美元到5000万美元，现在上涨了1.5倍；
Just talks about the development project of other countries. Basically, he dissed Mig MFI, Japanese F-2, India LCA, F-22 and F-35's rising cost
7.目前611所主要分航空和航天两大块，有很多重大项目，不便提及。但是现在无人飞行器是其中一个很重要的方向。另：国家已经给611所拨款10亿，要求611再建造一个国际领先的飞机设计所；
611's main responsibility are aerospace and such. UAV is a major development area. 611 is given 1 billion Yuan development to build a world leading airplane designing factory
8.611 所目前有员工1700，其中科技人员1100，还有所里40岁以下的工作人员也是1100，所以611所既是一个年轻的集体，又是一个有着极其丰富经验的集体，国内别的所没有设计过一个完整的项目，而611有三个（所长原话）；在这里再说一下对杨所长本人的印象：年轻（63年生人），有为（枭龙，10号机总师），好学（目前在北航攻读博士学位，我心思，他还用读吗？），充满个人魅力的帅哥一个；赞！
611's employees are relatively young
9.目前国内很多项目都有611所参与：山鹰、飞豹、某新型直升机（武直10）；[虚幻天空]
many programs use 611 consulting include JL-9, JH-7 and WZ-10
10.有同学提问到我国的四代机项目花落谁家，杨所长表示肯定是611跟601竞争，两家都要做方案，就看谁的方案好了，但是他对611很乐观（这个大家都知道）[虚幻天空]
asked about 5th generation program and which company will get it, it's definitely a competition bw SAC and CAC, both companies have put forward their designs