JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Spike said:

Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation is a major shareholder, the other major shareholder is Liu Changle who also acts as Phoenix Television's CEO. It's head office is in Kowloon, HK. Although it maintains good relations with the government (to keep the huge mainland market open), I don't think it is actually directly "backed" by it.

It is available where I live on a multicultural cable channel at 5:30PM every weekday.

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"China backed" is just what I think, no hard proof. You mean that fat ugly guy - Liu Chang Le? Yeah, he always show up whenever there is a big occasion.

So, may I know where do you live? Did you mean the "Military Program" is available at 5:30pm every weekday in your place? Actually, the Phoenix TV has quite a few channels, but only one available on cable TV network. Oh, I live in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

But again, do you think what the TV said (as I mentioned) is reliable? (Actually I'm quite disappointed when I heard what it said) When speculation said FC-1 is comparable to F-16, Ma (the analyst) gave a comment: "F-16's unit price is 20m while FC-1 is 8.5m. If FC-1 is comparable to F-16, then the Chinese government has sold it to cheap". He further said: "Making a aircraft carrier operational is not something overnight. As China neither have the ability to build engines for large ship nor its electronics equipment. Even if so, China will need years to train its personnel to operate the ship. Currently Hainan and other places in China don't have a port for such a large ship."

Re: JF-17: New Pics

SteelBird said:

.....
4). FC-1 is no comparable to F-16 in many aspects:
- FC-1 max speed 1.6 compare to F-16 2.0
- FC-1 payload 3600kg compare to F-16 7220kg
- FC-1 combat radius 1200km compart to F-16 1200km
- Avionic, fire control and other...

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Isn't F-16 more of a multi role fighter-bomber & FC-1 a fighter. That explains the payload diff. Don't think the diff in max speed is that significant.
Yes, everything else depends on the avionics suite.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Schumacher said:

Isn't F-16 more of a multi role fighter-bomber & FC-1 a fighter. That explains the payload diff. Don't think the diff in max speed is that significant.
Yes, everything else depends on the avionics suite.

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So, does "comparable to F-16" means to be comparable to the earlier version of F-16s?

Re: JF-17: New Pics

SteelBird said:

"But again, do you think what the TV said (as I mentioned) is reliable? (Actually I'm quite disappointed when I heard what it said) When speculation said FC-1 is comparable to F-16, Ma (the analyst) gave a comment: "F-16's unit price is 20m while FC-1 is 8.5m. If FC-1 is comparable to F-16, then the Chinese government has sold it to cheap". He further said: "Making a aircraft carrier operational is not something overnight. As China neither have the ability to build engines for large ship nor its electronics equipment. Even if so, China will need years to train its personnel to operate the ship. Currently Hainan and other places in China don't have a port for such a large ship."

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Seriously do u really consider that info to be reliable and accurate. Various HK newspapers etc often make baseless assumptions of Chinese military capabilities and acquirements. For example if i remember correctly "Apple Daily" said that the PLA will buy Mirage 2000 from France whent the EU arms embargo is lifted. This report was openly denied by the Chinese.
Most HK base analyst are quite pathetic in their assessments of military and political situations and environments. I myself is from HK and i am saying this because those so called "experts" in HK are seriously incorrect in most of their assumptions. I can assure we r much better analyst than those fools in HK.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Exactly, i've also seen this kind of news, "France to sell Mirage 4000 to India" (the developpement of these aircraft was stopped 25 years ago !):rofl: :rofl: .

Re: JF-17: New Pics

SteelBird said:

"China backed" is just what I think, no hard proof. You mean that fat ugly guy - Liu Chang Le? Yeah, he always show up whenever there is a big occasion.

So, may I know where do you live? Did you mean the "Military Program" is available at 5:30pm every weekday in your place? Actually, the Phoenix TV has quite a few channels, but only one available on cable TV network. Oh, I live in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

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I live in Vancouver, Canada. The Phoenix Programs available are the newsline and that editorial program featuring that Li guy who always wears traditional clothing. I don't think there is a "Military Program"? If there is, it's probably only available here on satellite.

What do you guys expect from a generic news service like Phoenix? CNN gets specifics about military wrong as well, and they have more sources available.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Black jack said:

As far as i know, the F-7MF was/is more of an upgrade. Now this was more feasible cost wise, whereas FC1 was floating around neglected. So most likely the F7-MF was the one that could have gone through if FC1 hadn't. So you think it would have, I don't...let's agree to disagree.

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no, CAC has always maintained that mf is just as capable as fc-1. Of course, one got more funding, so it was carried out more. I really do wish you read what I write and do a little research of your own. Certain assertions are just blatantly wrong.

As for learning from FC1, Yes they did learn...what are you on about? If they decide to put DSI on the J-10 don't you think they would have more of an idea? The problem is, people talk or should i say speculate about the J-10 and CAC and the Chinese governments decisions/views when at the end of the day it's speculation or your personal views or "chinese whisper" so to speak. The worst thing is, these speculations/views are argued upon as though they are facts.

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04 can be viewed as a testbed for certain things they want to put on J-10. That's true. But there is no telling that these things haven't already been put on J-10 or that they are not putting them on at the same time. J-10 modified project is going on in the background, so we don't get a sense of its progress as clear as for FC-1.

Personally,I think some people don't give the FC1 enough credit. I have been meaning to ask you a question, Do you think there is space for the FC1 in the PLAAF? People also talk about China buying the FC1 only to bring the price down ...now that is BS...if it ain't needed they won't buy it. They're smarter then that. Considering you have something like 700-800 F-7's etc? It's just that i get the impression that some Chinese individuals think the FC1 isn't good enough for China, hence this excuse about pressured buying to bring the price down. So is it good enough?Well; Until your a superpower...it is :china:

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FC-1 isn't good enough for China. Look at the scale that they are producing J-10, it should give you an idea. Seriously, I suggest you read up some stuff on J-10 and FC-1 first.

In terms of costs, do you know anything about business? I have a business partner. Now whatever materials/labour he spends money on, I have all reciepts infront of me...everything has to add up. I don't have to be there to know. Simple demand and supply and exchange of money. But in this case again...speculation. No one really knows the real deal. :coffee:

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lol, business in China don't work that way. Maybe you should read up on the American trade complaints about China. Maybe you should read up on why the trading surplus/deficit is listed vastly different in China and America. Do you realize that just recently, China discovered a 16.7% increase in GDP for 2004 over the previous estimation?

Make no mistake, this is China's foray into the export market. It's in this to make money.

commenting on steelbird's info:
3). FC-1's unit price 8.5m while F-16 is 20m (???, we claim that the unit price is 15m...)
- when did F-16 become 20m? FC-1 is mentionned as only 10 million for China by L-15 developer (again, this is a speculation, no one on this forum knows exactly how much it costs China to produce FC-1)
4). FC-1 is no comparable to F-16 in many aspects:
- FC-1 max speed 1.6 compare to F-16 2.0
-> 1.8 not 1.6
- FC-1 payload 3600kg compare to F-16 7220kg
-> I think this is low too, can't remember the exactly number
- FC-1 combat radius 1200km compart to F-16 1200km
-> FC-1's combat radius is 1800KM and range is 3500KM

Re: JF-17: New Pics

no, CAC has always maintained that mf is just as capable as fc-1. Of course, one got more funding, so it was carried out more. I really do wish you read what I write and do a little research of your own. Certain assertions are just blatantly wrong.

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As for being as capable, CAC will say that about any plane they make. What assertions? It's logic.

04 can be viewed as a testbed for certain things they want to put on J-10. That's true. But there is no telling that these things haven't already been put on J-10 or that they are not putting them on at the same time. J-10 modified project is going on in the background, so we don't get a sense of its progress as clear as for FC-1.

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So your point about them learning nothing was wrong. Your too much into J-10 dude.

FC-1 isn't good enough for China. Look at the scale that they are producing J-10, it should give you an idea. Seriously, I suggest you read up some stuff on J-10 and FC-1 first.

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Whats the scale of production of the J-10 got to do with the JF-17 not being good enough for China? You talk like the J-10 is on par with the bloody F-22. Sorry to burst your bubble but it's more like an F-16 remember. So it's not like China is going to be a huge threat to the world with the J-10 seen as most countries are around a generation ahead. So in light of this, when your inducting planes of the calibre of the J-10, the JF-17 is good enough...especially when you have hundreds of F7's waiting to be phased out. You got money to replace them with J-10...but you ain't got that much. Don't get me wrong however, I have plenty of respect for China and am enjoying seeing it become stronger in every way. It's going in the right direction.

lol, business in China don't work that way. Maybe you should read up on the American trade complaints about China. Maybe you should read up on why the trading surplus/deficit is listed vastly different in China and America. Do you realize that just recently, China discovered a 16.7% increase in GDP for 2004 over the previous estimation?

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Again, you point has nothing to do with what we're discussing. I don't care if who i am working with is incompetant...you just have to put your foot down. In terms of making money with the JF-17, I agree it is for making money,partly. But that doesn't mean it ain't good enough to induct. When your making stuff on the level of Rafale/Eurofighter (i won't even say F-22/35), then you can tell me it isn't good enough. Until then, keep your feet firmly on the ground. :coffee:

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Whats the scale of production of the J-10 got to do with the JF-17 not being good enough for China? You talk like the J-10 is on par with the bloody F-22. Sorry to burst your bubble but it's more like an F-16 remember. So it's not like China is going to be a huge threat to the world with the J-10 seen as most countries are a generation ahead. So in light of this, when your inducting planes of the calibre of the J-10, the JF-17 is good enough...especially when you have hundreds of F7's waiting to be phased out. You got money to replace them with J-10...but you ain't got that much.

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Fc-1 was desgined as an export project and will remain that way.The j-10 has the potential to become a eurofighter, which is why the PLAAF likes the plane. The fc-1 is more like and f-16. If the PLAAF decides to buy the fc-1, it will take money away from the aquisition of j-10s.

The first PAF jf-17 squadrom will form in 2009. Thats about the earliest a chiense jf-17 group can be formed aswell. By then, at current production rates, China will have 200-250 j-10s. If another production line is set up, it may be even more.

Also keeping a 3.5 gen aircraft with some 4th gen avionics and weapons in the era of 5th gen is not so smart.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

MIGleader said:

Fc-1 was desgined as an export project and will remain that way.The j-10 has the potential to become a eurofighter, which is why the PLAAF likes the plane. The fc-1 is more like and f-16. If the PLAAF decides to buy the fc-1, it will take money away from the aquisition of j-10s.

The first PAF jf-17 squadrom will form in 2009. Thats about the earliest a chiense jf-17 group can be formed aswell. By then, at current production rates, China will have 200-250 j-10s. If another production line is set up, it may be even more.

Also keeping a 3.5 gen aircraft with some 4th gen avionics and weapons in the era of 5th gen is not so smart.

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Thanks for the reply. Your right, the J-10 i believe will become a "eurofighter" of some sort once it matures, but that is quiet some time away. For now, it's still more of an F-16. And in terms of having a 4th generation plane with 5th generation planes around is not smart. But then again, the J-10 is hovering around the fourth generation aswell, and is also at risk.

The main threat will be Taiwan maybe US, JF-17's and J-10/11's against Taiwan = cool. Again US = not so cool. It's going to take time like i said before.