JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

Re: JF-17: New Pics

yes, it would've been. Look at every recent Chinese project, there is a domestic version and export version. super-7 and f-7mf projects were both internal CAC projects before PAF decided to join in super-7 and make it jf-17. Make no mistake, people in CAC was going to develop one of the two aforementionned projects for export number either way. It helped that they got funding from Pakistan, but they wanted something all along to sell to existing F-7 users (and other users). And it's not priceless learning curve for CAC, it learnt everything it needs from J-10.

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As far as i know, the F-7MF was/is more of an upgrade. Now this was more feasible cost wise, whereas FC1 was floating around neglected. So most likely the F7-MF was the one that could have gone through if FC1 hadn't. So you think it would have, I don't...let's agree to disagree.

As for learning from FC1, Yes they did learn...what are you on about? If they decide to put DSI on the J-10 don't you think they would have more of an idea? The problem is, people talk or should i say speculate about the J-10 and CAC and the Chinese governments decisions/views when at the end of the day it's speculation or your personal views or "chinese whisper" so to speak. The worst thing is, these speculations/views are argued upon as though they are facts.

Personally,I think some people don't give the FC1 enough credit. I have been meaning to ask you a question, Do you think there is space for the FC1 in the PLAAF? People also talk about China buying the FC1 only to bring the price down ...now that is BS...if it ain't needed they won't buy it. They're smarter then that. Considering you have something like 700-800 F-7's etc? It's just that i get the impression that some Chinese individuals think the FC1 isn't good enough for China, hence this excuse about pressured buying to bring the price down. So is it good enough?Well; Until your a superpower...it is :china:

As for sharing the cost of production, that's total bs. How the heck can Pakistan get a lowdown on the exact of labour cost and materials cost? CAC's all about w will set prices on the components and assembly and such. Other contractors in China will set their prices for the radars, avionics and engines and such. After all that is done, whatever is left over is probably shared. And then, the training and servicing agreement will be agreed with either China or Pakistan. Whoever is in charge of that will get paid for it.

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In terms of costs, do you know anything about business? I have a business partner. Now whatever materials/labour he spends money on, I have all reciepts infront of me...everything has to add up. I don't have to be there to know. Simple demand and supply and exchange of money. But in this case again...speculation. No one really knows the real deal. :coffee:

Re: JF-17: New Pics

netspider said:

Does the CFTE(not sure I spelled it right), the only official flight test center in China, ever test JF-17? If not, does this mean the JF-17 will never enter PLAAF? It looks like every indegenious models currently serving in PLAAF has been extensively tested by this institute, and receive design certificate from this institute before enter batch production.

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Not that we know of. Most sources are sure that the older version was never transferred to CFTE. The new version just flew, so it wont be transferred to CFTE just quite yet.

The fc-1 is not a super-secret aircraft of the chinese, unlike the j-10. Thus, its unlikely pictures of it at CFTE will not appear. If anything, a transfer to CFTE would be widely covered by media and aired for national pride purposes.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Black jack said:

Johnwoo, I highly doubt the FC-1/JF-17 project would have been persued if Pakistan hadn't invested.

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I never argue that.
But, we all know that FC-1/JF-17 is a continuation of Super-7 project. Super-7 was dropped/ceased in some point until CAC and PAC had an agreement to continue the project that become FC-1/JF-17. Before having agreement in both parties, China already spent some amount of money on Super-7, which is the first stage of FC-1/JF-17. In that first stage, Pakistan has never contributed monetary until the second stage.
While PLAAF was not supporting, why CAC continue this project?
The only reason I can think of is this plane has export potential that CAC wanted to make money, and there is a guarantee (at least) one customer that is Pakistan. From start to the end, this is China's project, at least they spent more than pakistan. It does not make sense to give 50% profit to Pakistan for all the export (including internal) orders that is going to manufacture in China.
I have read that Pakistan's contribution is 150 mil. If this is true, this amount is only good for TOT Transfer, in my opinion, of course.

Regards,

John

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Guys why r u all getting so much worked up on a thing like this?? We all know both parties have an agreement and they are happy with it. We will know when the agreement comes out and lets not murder each other based on speculations.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

I totally agreed that we don't know enough to make any definite claim either ways, so why should we waste time on this pointless debate. As far as we knew both sides were satify with their position, until the details agreement has been release. All we had are speculations.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

My first post on this forum and right in middle of a hot debate.

Based on sharing development costs equally, equal sharing of NET profits should not really come as a surprise to anyone. One can perhaps use a simple analogy here to simplify this issue.
Imagine two individuals starting a business with 50:50 investment. Mr A is to remain a silent partner, while Mr B is given the burden of actually running the business. How do they share the profits? To share them equally under these conditions would be extremely unfair to Mr B as he would be doing all the running around while Mr A would simply sit and enjoy all the fruits. But hang on. How about if Mr B is actually paid an agreed amount for his efforts? Could they share the profits now? Of course they could as Mr B's payment would come under the cost of business and one should not mix that up with the revenue and/or net profit.

Based on this simple analogy, if chinese were to produce 90% of FC-1 components, of course they would get paid for that. All contractors/sub contractors/middle men have their own prices and would make profits in their own way. Net profit, however, should be looked at as total revenues minus total costs, and if that is to be shared equally, there are no surprises.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Last night (3-May-2006) on Pheonix Channel, a progam introduce the FC-1 PT04, they made comment like this (I'd try to make them short):

1). FC-1 is not neccesary to PLA, so it is developed for export market
2). Currently no order from PLA is made (why???, in this forum and some other sources, we claim that PLA has decided to place an order)
3). FC-1's unit price 8.5m while F-16 is 20m (???, we claim that the unit price is 15m...)
4). FC-1 is no comparable to F-16 in many aspects:
- FC-1 max speed 1.6 compare to F-16 2.0
- FC-1 payload 3600kg compare to F-16 7220kg
- FC-1 combat radius 1200km compart to F-16 1200km
- Avionic, fire control and other...

Regarding the Varyag that is claimed to be operational within 2 years and will be deployed at Hainan, the TV program said, it's impossible. 'coz when the ship is bought from Ukrain, it was just a piece of waste iron, no engine, no electronic equipment... and Hainan doesnt have a port for porting such a large ship.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

SteelBird said:

Last night (3-May-2006) on Pheonix Channel, a progam introduce the FC-1 PT04, they made comment like this (I'd try to make them short):

1). FC-1 is not neccesary to PLA, so it is developed for export market
2). Currently no order from PLA is made (why???, in this forum and some other sources, we claim that PLA has decided to place an order)
3). FC-1's unit price 8.5m while F-16 is 20m (???, we claim that the unit price is 15m...)
4). FC-1 is no comparable to F-16 in many aspects:
- FC-1 max speed 1.6 compare to F-16 2.0
- FC-1 payload 3600kg compare to F-16 7220kg
- FC-1 combat radius 1200km compart to F-16 1200km
- Avionic, fire control and other...

Regarding the Varyag that is claimed to be operational within 2 years and will be deployed at Hainan, the TV program said, it's impossible. 'coz when the ship is bought from Ukrain, it was just a piece of waste iron, no engine, no electronic equipment... and Hainan doesnt have a port for porting such a large ship.

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Steelbird,
Where is this Pheonix Channel located?

Re: JF-17: New Pics

pshamim said:

Steelbird,
Where is this Pheonix Channel located?

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Hong Kong (but I think it is China backed), "鳳凰衛視" in Chinese and the analyst was 馬鼎勝 (Ma Ding Sheng). He is a Hong Kong man. The program shows every Wednesday 8:00pm Hong Kong time.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

SteelBird said:

Hong Kong (but I think it is China backed), "鳳凰衛視" in Chinese and the analyst was 馬鼎勝 (Ma Ding Sheng). He is a Hong Kong man. The program shows every Wednesday 8:00pm Hong Kong time.

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Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation is a major shareholder, the other major shareholder is Liu Changle who also acts as Phoenix Television's CEO. It's head office is in Kowloon, HK. Although it maintains good relations with the government (to keep the huge mainland market open), I don't think it is actually directly "backed" by it.

It is available where I live on a multicultural cable channel at 5:30PM every weekday.