JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[rhino123]

Frankly speaking... I really doubt that news. First off... other than the Russian, who is the Indian going to turn to when they wanted to buy state of the art fighters at the price per unit as offered by the Russian. Second off, where is the Indian going to get the spare parts and stuff (such as munition) for their large fleet of Russian aircrafts and systems. So why would the Russian actually mind too much as to whether the Indians are going to be too happy or not.

Also, if I was the Russian, I would have sell as much RD-93 as I can to the Pakistani or Chinese before the WS-13 came online. Because I know that the WS-13 will ultimately replace the RD-93... and I will not be able to sell anymore of this engine anymore once the WS-13 came about and that will reduce my revenue. In actual fact, I will even be pouring R&D monies into replacement or upgrades for my RD-93, so that I can have an engine that was better (and hopefully cheaper) than the WS-13 and continue to sell this new engines as a alternative to the Pakistani and other countries who wanted the JF-17.

 

[Engineer]

Also, if I was the Russian, I would have sell as much RD-93 as I can to the Pakistani or Chinese before the WS-13 came online. Because I know that the WS-13 will ultimately replace the RD-93... and I will not be able to sell anymore of this engine anymore once the WS-13 came about and that will reduce my revenue. In actual fact, I will even be pouring R&D monies into replacement or upgrades for my RD-93, so that I can have an engine that was better (and hopefully cheaper) than the WS-13 and continue to sell this new engines as a alternative to the Pakistani and other countries who wanted the JF-17.

If only the Russians actually think this way, they would not be still clinging to the idea of selling Su-35 to China.

 

[thunderchief]

Frankly speaking... I really doubt that news. First off... other than the Russian, who is the Indian going to turn to when they wanted to buy state of the art fighters at the price per unit as offered by the Russian. Second off, where is the Indian going to get the spare parts and stuff (such as munition) for their large fleet of Russian aircrafts and systems. So why would the Russian actually mind too much as to whether the Indians are going to be too happy or not.

Well , not entirely true . Obviously , India depends on Russia (and other way around) and can't get rid of Russian weapons overnight . But they do tend to "punish" Russia and buy stuff from other countries : Rafale is one example , but also Mi-28 lost Indian tender against AH-64 , and Mi-26 against Chinook .

India occasionally shows to Russia it cannot be taken for granted , so we cannot dismiss outright this claim about spoiling RD-93 deal .

 

[Zahid]

Well , not entirely true . Obviously , India depends on Russia (and other way around) and can't get rid of Russian weapons overnight . But they do tend to "punish" Russia and buy stuff from other countries : Rafale is one example , but also Mi-28 lost Indian tender against AH-64 , and Mi-26 against Chinook .

India occasionally shows to Russia it cannot be taken for granted , so we cannot dismiss outright this claim about spoiling RD-93 deal .

Everything can be explained by the state of Pakistan's economy. We really do not need to fall-back on years old RD-93 bogey to explain something that is pretty easy to understand as it is.

If Pakistan continues to use RD-93 for JF-17 batch 2 (and I am certain that is the case), then we can discount this theory entirely. PAF would not dare put out 50 more planes in addition to 50 that are already inducted if it did not have the confidence in RD-93.

Russians can see India's tilt towards 'West' and its gradual induction into American orbit. They have shown increasing interest in Pakistan over the last few years.

 

[tphuang]

The J-31 uses (or will use) upgraded 100 kN engines which are significantly more powerful and has a greater thrust than the Kaveri.

why are you comparing J-31's engine to Kaveri in a JF-17 thread?

I doubt there is any real credence to Russia not supplying RD-93 for JF-17. But if they want to export elsewhere, WS-13 better be ready.

 

[Dizasta1]

Well , not entirely true . Obviously , India depends on Russia (and other way around) and can't get rid of Russian weapons overnight . But they do tend to "punish" Russia and buy stuff from other countries : Rafale is one example , but also Mi-28 lost Indian tender against AH-64 , and Mi-26 against Chinook .

India occasionally shows to Russia it cannot be taken for granted , so we cannot dismiss outright this claim about spoiling RD-93 deal .

All that would've been true and effective strategy for india, 5 years ago. Then, the economic growth of india seemed to be sustainable. Now, however, that has all changed since the growth of the indian economy is slowing down. This slow down will eventually be unable to sustain the expansive military modernization that they've chalked out.

Russia should be wise to choose the right allies or business partners. China is the best business partner Russia could ever hope for and it is in the best interests of Russia to develop a cordial, mutually beneficial, economic alliance with China. And China too should recognize that Russia can prove to be an unmatched ally in the long-term.

As for the RD-93 deal, Russia knows that it is inevitable that China will conquer the engine enigma and start churning out good quality, durable and high-performance engines, pretty soon. So, if Russia wants to please it's thankless ally, india by deliberately slowing down RD-93 engine production for China-Pakistan. Then it better be prepared to feel the pinch, when China decides that it no longer would entertain purchase of Russian engines.

And another thing, so far, Russia has not had any serious and direct competition from China in the world arms market. The day China achieves 100% Chinese produced combat aircraft, which it wants to sell to the world, like America did with the F-16s. And where China is able to provide superior quality of after sales support, with unhindered spares supply chain. Then that day, Russia would have serious competition from China and would lose out a hefty chunk of the money and buyers who would opt for China.

 

[plawolf]

Well , not entirely true . Obviously , India depends on Russia (and other way around) and can't get rid of Russian weapons overnight . But they do tend to "punish" Russia and buy stuff from other countries : Rafale is one example , but also Mi-28 lost Indian tender against AH-64 , and Mi-26 against Chinook .

India occasionally shows to Russia it cannot be taken for granted , so we cannot dismiss outright this claim about spoiling RD-93 deal .

Believe it or not, money is not all the Russians care about, and even if it was, China has far far deeper pockets than India.

China and Russia has a mutually beneficial political and diplomatic partnership that is worth far more to both than a few billion dollars in arms trades, not to mention the massive bilateral commercial trade between the two that makes even the biggest Indian arms buy look like pocket change.

The Indians can dream and blow hot air about what big shots they are all they want, but the cold hard fact at the end of the day is the Russian RD93 is flying in Pakistani JF17s right now and will continue to do so until the WS13 is ready, and likely some time after.

Does that really look like anything getting spoilt to you?

The uncertainty about the Russian engine expressed by other potential foreign buyers is a real bottleneck for the JF17's export success. But that is a completely seperate issue from reliable RD93 supplies to Pakistan, which has already been proven to be not a problem.

Now, can we stop with this fantasy and discuss some actual facts and real news?

 

[asif iqbal]

Interesting article not 100% correct but there you go

Thunder Over Dubai As First JF-17 Batch Is Completed

Next month a ceremony will be held in Pakistan to mark the delivery of the 50th JF-17 multirole fighter from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) factory at Kamra. The handover marks the completion of production of the first batch of aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Designed in China by Chengdu as the FC-1, the JF-17 Thunder is being jointly developed and marketed by the Chinese and PAC.

With the first batch completed, the Kamra factory is gearing up to begin Block 2 production, with a gap of a few weeks to reconfigure the assembly line to provide for the new version. Block 2 JF-17s differ by between 10 and 15 percent from Block 1 machines, with improvements implemented across much of the avionics suite. The most important difference is the addition of an air-to-air refueling*capability.

Block 2 will cover a further 50 aircraft and will complete the current firm orders from the PAF for 100 JF-17s. However, the eventual force requirement is considerably greater as the JF-17 replaces the F-5, F-7 and Mirage in PAF service. The factory is currently producing at a rate of 16 aircraft per year, but can increase to 25 if needed. All JF-17s are assembled in Pakistan, but China retains around 40 percent of the total*workshare.

The JF-17 partnership is currently in the process of defining what the configuration of the Block 3 production aircraft will be, with the main aim of enhancing capability. This may include new weapons, from both Chinese and other origins, and possibly new radar and engine. The JF-17 already has the SD-10 (PL-12) active-radar air-to-air missile, and other weapons are being explored. PAC claims that integration of new weapons can be accomplished in a quick and cost-effective*fashion.

Chengdu has schemed a two-seat trainer version that may prove attractive to some customers. It is understood that the project remains an engineering study only for now, and any further development would depend on a customer requirement. Pakistan has no such need for a trainer for the time being, as it has found the JF-17 to be an easy aircraft to fly with an excellent human/machine interface. The development of capable simulators means that the conversion of pilots to the type can be accomplished without the need for a two-seater, even for ab initio pilots flying the JF-17 as their first operational type. However, the future development of a two-seat combat aircraft is a*possibility.

Here at Dubai the JF-17 is being displayed daily by Wing Commander Ronald, commander of No. 16 ‘Black Panthers’ Squadron. PAC has sent three aircraft to the show to promote the JF-17 to potential buyers. The company suggests that there is a global requirement to replace up to 4,000 early-generation jet fighters, and it is pitching the JF-17 as a cost-effective aircraft that offers true multi-role capability. PAC reports that 11 countries are showing strong interest in the*type.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[nabil_05]

It seems plausible, India is the largest remaining market for Russian arms industry and India has a lot of leverage.

What is the current status of the Chinese WS-13 engine that was suppose to supersede Rd-93?

Incidentally, isn't WS-13 also in the same class as the engine India is developing for its own medium combat aircraft?

Does this mean j-31 is in the same class as India's still vapor ware MCA?

Leverage my ***

Russians understand geo-politics and economic ties better than most, they know China is about to overcome the engine debacle they are once had, just matter of time really, we already see WS-10xx equipped J-11, 15s, 10Bs dont we?

On Indian leverage on Russia, to the contrary, its the other way around, Russians are desparate to sell them RD-93MA, also promoted the MK Sea Wasp at Zhuhai 2012, they are urging China to go for full 1000 piece order instead of original 400. Its Indians who tried to screw things up many times but Russkies didnt bother, heck, putin himself allowed the sale.

Lastly, please dont bring "mighty" indian "indigenous" planes here.

Thanks

 

[Zahid]

.
.
.
On Indian leverage on Russia, to the contrary, its the other way around, Russians are desparate to sell them RD-93MA,
.
.
.

When did that happen? As far as I know, RD-93 is JF-17 specific. RD-93MA is derived from improved and uprated RD-33 (RD-33MK?). What plane do Indians have that needs to be powered by RD-93MA?