asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
possible blk2
possible blk3
As far as I can see that is not Block II and that isn't Block III it's a computer aided conceptual design nothing is confirmed on that
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
As far as I can see that is not Block II and that isn't Block III it's a computer aided conceptual design nothing is confirmed on that
they are not doing this for fun mate
many configs are being tested on CAD/ CAM modelling techniques, and it is most likely to be BLK-3 config. Purpose is not to convert it into a so called stealth since it is quite obvious that jf-17 does not have the room under current design parameters to qualify for stealth, the purpose is to reduce RCS as much as possible under current design parameters. Sort a tweaking i would say.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Ok had a bit of time this morning so I complied a list of pics to show JF-17 production
First number denotes the year second is the year and last is the number of aircraft
So 07-101 is built in 2007 is Block I aircraft number 1
In 2007 we had serials 07-101 to 07-105 that's 5 units manufactured
In 2008 we had serials 08-106 to 08-108 that's 3 units manufactured
In 2009 we had serials 09-109 to 09-112 that's 4 units manufactured
09-109
09-112
In 2010 we had serials 10-113 to 10-128 that's 16 units manufactured
To to prove next one is 11-129 here it is
I will continue when for 2012 and 2013 when I get time but I can tell you it's as follows
The summary
07-101 to 07-105 thats 5 units*
08-106 to 08-108 that's 3 units*
09-109 to 09-112 that's 4 units*
10-113 to 10-128 that's 16 units*
11-129 to 11-136 that's 8 units*
12-137 to 12-142 that's 6 units*
13-143 to 13-150 that's 8 units
Deino maybe you can use this info in your next air force article if you do one on JF-17 Block II as I don't think to date anyone has listed these numbers before for production rates!!
First number denotes the year second is the year and last is the number of aircraft
So 07-101 is built in 2007 is Block I aircraft number 1
In 2007 we had serials 07-101 to 07-105 that's 5 units manufactured
In 2008 we had serials 08-106 to 08-108 that's 3 units manufactured
In 2009 we had serials 09-109 to 09-112 that's 4 units manufactured
09-109
09-112
In 2010 we had serials 10-113 to 10-128 that's 16 units manufactured
To to prove next one is 11-129 here it is
I will continue when for 2012 and 2013 when I get time but I can tell you it's as follows
The summary
07-101 to 07-105 thats 5 units*
08-106 to 08-108 that's 3 units*
09-109 to 09-112 that's 4 units*
10-113 to 10-128 that's 16 units*
11-129 to 11-136 that's 8 units*
12-137 to 12-142 that's 6 units*
13-143 to 13-150 that's 8 units
Deino maybe you can use this info in your next air force article if you do one on JF-17 Block II as I don't think to date anyone has listed these numbers before for production rates!!
Last edited:
thunderchief
Senior Member
Well actually , reducing frontal RCS of JF-17 (in Gripen style) would help that plane a lot . Frontal RCS of 4 AAMs is not that big (around 0.2 - 0.5 sqm) , so reducing frontal RCS of unarmed plane to let's say somewhere between 0.5 - 1 sqm would be significant . Obviously , you cannot just add RCS of "naked" plane and RCS of the missiles to get RCS of armed plane , but it is good enough for rough approximation .
I agree that you cannot significantly reduce RCS on existing planes , but you could redesign shape of JF-17 and include more composites ( similar to J-10B compared to J-10A ) . Obviously , that would include lot of work and money would need to be spent .
Zahid
Junior Member
It is interesting to see cross posts picked from other forums and put up here. Once SDF was the place to be to see what is new in FC-1 story. Now all we have is JF-17 info from Pakistani forums.
We used to have regular contributions from TP, Crobato, among others. Now, as far as our Chinese friends are concerned it is a pretty closed subject. Come on guys you could do better than this! I would not want any classified information on a public forum, but really a lot of information comes from Chinese sources. But no body picks it up and posts on SDF any more.
Case in point, the following article. Courtesy @Antibody (as @Manticore on PDF):
巴飛行員談梟龍真情流露：我的戰機中國造
中評社北京12月8日電／英《國際航空》雜誌文章稱，最近在範保羅、杜拜等大型商業航空展頻繁地亮相，將成都飛機工業集團及巴基斯坦航空聯合體合研的梟龍戰鬥機JF-17雷電推向了國際舞台。對這款中巴研發的戰機的演示，以及對其傳感器和配備武器的展覽，顯示出它完全可以與其他第三代戰鬥機，如F-16戰隼戰鬥機，以及米格29戰鬥機相媲美。
但是這款在巴基斯坦空軍服役的戰機達到了怎樣一個水平呢？畢竟，從2010年4月開始它已經奮鬥在巴基斯坦空軍的最前線。航空國際與唯一能真正回答這個問題的人們，JF-17的飛行員和技術人員們進行了交流。當2010年JF-17在範堡羅國際航展亮相時，巴基斯坦空軍只有一個JF-17的編制，那就是駐扎在皮沙沃空軍基地的第26"黑蜘蛛"中隊，配備了20架戰機。此類型的訓練大綱也是最近才被批准的，當時它唯一可以攜帶的武器是一些通用炸彈以及PL-5EII短程防空導彈。
但現在情況已經改變了，如今的JF-17 可以攜帶雷達制導超視距導彈實現空對空性能，以及一些可以實現空對地任務的精確制導武器。目前巴基斯坦空軍在皮沙沃空軍基地擁有一個能夠全面運行的前線JF-17編制，第16“黑豹”中隊，第26“黑蜘蛛”中隊現在負責飛行員的轉換訓練。
我們的第三中隊正在計劃中，但是我們還沒有決定到底選擇米格21戰鬥機的中國版-成都F-7系列的哪一款。
經得住考驗的發動機
JF-17梟龍戰機的發動機選擇了俄羅斯克利莫夫RD-93發動機，這款源於米格-29採用的RD-33渦扇發動機在油耗和翻修間時方面皆落後於西方國家，但是起源於蘇聯的有口皆碑的做工讓它在穩定性和可靠性方面聲名遠播，尤其是機場的基礎設施還不是那麼現代化的狀態下。“我們已經使用這款發動機飛行了7000多個小時，沒有出現過任何問題。”空軍准將馬哈茂德說。這款發動機實在是太給力了，雖然沒有配備全權數位引擎控制系統，但是它的數字電子發動機控制系統通過在飛行員干預之前對發動機管理的決策，使其在運行方面無憂無慮。在機場條件不利的情況下可以延長2133米以上的滑行距離，也就是說在25至30℃的海平面環境下，JF-17可以滿載武器起落，這進一步證明了它的可靠性。
對於JF-17的重量和複雜性方面的進一步簡化，中國工程師也找到了一種方法，那就是為RD-93配備一個被稱為發散式超音速進氣口的新穎的入口設計。與傳統的設計相比，發散式超音速進氣口即DSI沒有移動部件，更輕，且易於維護。位於進口的駝峰減緩了進入發動機的氣流，是設計來隱藏發動機的壓氣機葉片的表面的，以便最小化 JF-17已經很低的雷達信號。
武器的靈活性
JF-17為巴基斯坦空軍提供了在所有掛載點整合新武器，及配備Mil -Std-1760飛機/懸掛物電氣連接系統的靈活性。這個數字接口消除了每添加一個新武器就需要重新連接飛機的需要。“我們可以在自由市場買任何武器，自己在國內將它們安裝在JF-17上，”空軍准將馬哈茂德說：“我們擁有一個由工程師及飛行員組成的進行飛行測試的團隊，他們是一個單獨構成編制的飛行測試組，由巴基斯坦空軍來完成全程。”
隨著PL-5EII導彈的配備，空軍准將馬哈茂德被問及是否頭盔顯示系統也會成為未來升級的一部分。他證實對於這種能力發展已經在進行。“對於何時完成整合過程我們還沒有確切的時間，但是我們已經開啟了第一批設備的整合進程。
傳感器
JF-17用於空戰的主傳感器，KLJ-7型雷達是南京電子技術研究所研發的。據報道，它是為殲- 10研發的擁有可以匹配SD-10導彈的射程的KLJ-10雷達的一個縮小版，這兩款都可以進行標準空對空配置。“我們有能力攜帶四個但是我們不想這麼做，”這位空軍准將說：“ JF-17是一款小型的飛機，比起另外的兩枚導彈，我們更需要燃料。”
除了外翼配備的兩枚SD-10導彈外，JF-17符合標準的武器還包括：安裝於內翼的2到3個1000升的外置燃料箱，以及下腹部中心的800升的容器。
根據上尉阿赫桑給出的消息，JF-17為了防衛配備的天威電子戰系統不是中國原產的。它擁有完整的地面支持設備，使的巴基斯坦空軍能夠發展威脅庫以及自主干擾技術，由一個中央控制器及四大子系統控制：一個雷達告警接收機(RWR)、導彈預警系統(MAWS)、火焰彈及干擾絲分配器以及一個干擾發射機。
上尉阿赫桑說：“它是一個小型飛機，所以干擾機只能外掛。”
2012年中國航展上展出的JF-17配備的是中國的KG300G電子干擾吊艙，但是是否巴基斯坦空軍也在使用這款配備還未得到證實。根據製造商的手册這款設備適應性很強，能夠整合到其他電子設備例如雷達預警接收器及導彈接近告警系統等上面。
在空對地作戰中JF-17的主傳感器可以作為一個人慣性導航/ GPS系統來創造連續計算釋彈點及連續計算彈著點視覺模式。這些計算釋放及彈著點與起飛時相關運動有關，並且會影響武器釋放後的重力、速度和阻力，尤其對於準確地發射通用炸彈至關重要。（來源：新浪軍事）
中國評論新聞-軍情聚焦
We used to have regular contributions from TP, Crobato, among others. Now, as far as our Chinese friends are concerned it is a pretty closed subject. Come on guys you could do better than this! I would not want any classified information on a public forum, but really a lot of information comes from Chinese sources. But no body picks it up and posts on SDF any more.
Case in point, the following article. Courtesy @Antibody (as @Manticore on PDF):
巴飛行員談梟龍真情流露：我的戰機中國造
中評社北京12月8日電／英《國際航空》雜誌文章稱，最近在範保羅、杜拜等大型商業航空展頻繁地亮相，將成都飛機工業集團及巴基斯坦航空聯合體合研的梟龍戰鬥機JF-17雷電推向了國際舞台。對這款中巴研發的戰機的演示，以及對其傳感器和配備武器的展覽，顯示出它完全可以與其他第三代戰鬥機，如F-16戰隼戰鬥機，以及米格29戰鬥機相媲美。
但是這款在巴基斯坦空軍服役的戰機達到了怎樣一個水平呢？畢竟，從2010年4月開始它已經奮鬥在巴基斯坦空軍的最前線。航空國際與唯一能真正回答這個問題的人們，JF-17的飛行員和技術人員們進行了交流。當2010年JF-17在範堡羅國際航展亮相時，巴基斯坦空軍只有一個JF-17的編制，那就是駐扎在皮沙沃空軍基地的第26"黑蜘蛛"中隊，配備了20架戰機。此類型的訓練大綱也是最近才被批准的，當時它唯一可以攜帶的武器是一些通用炸彈以及PL-5EII短程防空導彈。
但現在情況已經改變了，如今的JF-17 可以攜帶雷達制導超視距導彈實現空對空性能，以及一些可以實現空對地任務的精確制導武器。目前巴基斯坦空軍在皮沙沃空軍基地擁有一個能夠全面運行的前線JF-17編制，第16“黑豹”中隊，第26“黑蜘蛛”中隊現在負責飛行員的轉換訓練。
我們的第三中隊正在計劃中，但是我們還沒有決定到底選擇米格21戰鬥機的中國版-成都F-7系列的哪一款。
經得住考驗的發動機
JF-17梟龍戰機的發動機選擇了俄羅斯克利莫夫RD-93發動機，這款源於米格-29採用的RD-33渦扇發動機在油耗和翻修間時方面皆落後於西方國家，但是起源於蘇聯的有口皆碑的做工讓它在穩定性和可靠性方面聲名遠播，尤其是機場的基礎設施還不是那麼現代化的狀態下。“我們已經使用這款發動機飛行了7000多個小時，沒有出現過任何問題。”空軍准將馬哈茂德說。這款發動機實在是太給力了，雖然沒有配備全權數位引擎控制系統，但是它的數字電子發動機控制系統通過在飛行員干預之前對發動機管理的決策，使其在運行方面無憂無慮。在機場條件不利的情況下可以延長2133米以上的滑行距離，也就是說在25至30℃的海平面環境下，JF-17可以滿載武器起落，這進一步證明了它的可靠性。
對於JF-17的重量和複雜性方面的進一步簡化，中國工程師也找到了一種方法，那就是為RD-93配備一個被稱為發散式超音速進氣口的新穎的入口設計。與傳統的設計相比，發散式超音速進氣口即DSI沒有移動部件，更輕，且易於維護。位於進口的駝峰減緩了進入發動機的氣流，是設計來隱藏發動機的壓氣機葉片的表面的，以便最小化 JF-17已經很低的雷達信號。
武器的靈活性
JF-17為巴基斯坦空軍提供了在所有掛載點整合新武器，及配備Mil -Std-1760飛機/懸掛物電氣連接系統的靈活性。這個數字接口消除了每添加一個新武器就需要重新連接飛機的需要。“我們可以在自由市場買任何武器，自己在國內將它們安裝在JF-17上，”空軍准將馬哈茂德說：“我們擁有一個由工程師及飛行員組成的進行飛行測試的團隊，他們是一個單獨構成編制的飛行測試組，由巴基斯坦空軍來完成全程。”
隨著PL-5EII導彈的配備，空軍准將馬哈茂德被問及是否頭盔顯示系統也會成為未來升級的一部分。他證實對於這種能力發展已經在進行。“對於何時完成整合過程我們還沒有確切的時間，但是我們已經開啟了第一批設備的整合進程。
傳感器
JF-17用於空戰的主傳感器，KLJ-7型雷達是南京電子技術研究所研發的。據報道，它是為殲- 10研發的擁有可以匹配SD-10導彈的射程的KLJ-10雷達的一個縮小版，這兩款都可以進行標準空對空配置。“我們有能力攜帶四個但是我們不想這麼做，”這位空軍准將說：“ JF-17是一款小型的飛機，比起另外的兩枚導彈，我們更需要燃料。”
除了外翼配備的兩枚SD-10導彈外，JF-17符合標準的武器還包括：安裝於內翼的2到3個1000升的外置燃料箱，以及下腹部中心的800升的容器。
根據上尉阿赫桑給出的消息，JF-17為了防衛配備的天威電子戰系統不是中國原產的。它擁有完整的地面支持設備，使的巴基斯坦空軍能夠發展威脅庫以及自主干擾技術，由一個中央控制器及四大子系統控制：一個雷達告警接收機(RWR)、導彈預警系統(MAWS)、火焰彈及干擾絲分配器以及一個干擾發射機。
上尉阿赫桑說：“它是一個小型飛機，所以干擾機只能外掛。”
2012年中國航展上展出的JF-17配備的是中國的KG300G電子干擾吊艙，但是是否巴基斯坦空軍也在使用這款配備還未得到證實。根據製造商的手册這款設備適應性很強，能夠整合到其他電子設備例如雷達預警接收器及導彈接近告警系統等上面。
在空對地作戰中JF-17的主傳感器可以作為一個人慣性導航/ GPS系統來創造連續計算釋彈點及連續計算彈著點視覺模式。這些計算釋放及彈著點與起飛時相關運動有關，並且會影響武器釋放後的重力、速度和阻力，尤其對於準確地發射通用炸彈至關重要。（來源：新浪軍事）
中國評論新聞-軍情聚焦
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Zahid any new points in that Chinese text? JF-17 has done many air shows and has received very favourable reviews and been praised, after the Dubai air show UAE air force team was over visiting PAC and they are very impressed with the aircraft facility’s there and we all know what aircraft those rich boys operate, usually after air shows many foreign delegations arrange visits to Pakistan’s Aeronautical Complex and at the centre of that is the JF-17 manufacturing facility
I believe Block II will increase the chances of export orders, as a matter of fact I believe we will get export orders for Block II it’s an aircraft that has matured and proved a great track record with 50 already delivered and serving, if you think about it its actually surprising that JF-17 Block I never made export orders since Mushak, Super Mushak and K-8 have all received good export orders from Kamra but like I have said before, if you are marketing a new plane and have a foreign engine in this case RD-93 from Russia it kills the deal
Technically speaking it shouldn’t, but it’s the first question people ask, “what engine is powering this aircraft” it doesn’t reflect well and as a result no orders for Block I, Sino-Pak have said in the past engine export issue is not the issue to exports if we can convince people then we are in business, if Block I had WS-13 right from the start the export story would have been much different, I guess WS-13 was not a priority for China as is WS-10 series or they had technical issues with it they couldn’t solve
Lastly I do think Block II is about a year late, really we should have had a squadron of Block II delivered by now but by the looks of things PAF is in no rush to fast track production since the production rate is essentially matching the retirement rate in the absence of export orders, we built 16 aircraft in 2010 then in 2011, 2012 and 2013 we were down to single digits, if we kept up that rate by now we should have built over 75 JF-17 aircraft but instead we are sitting at 50 produced units, we know that Kamra can build 25-30 aircraft a year flat out production
I believe Block II will increase the chances of export orders, as a matter of fact I believe we will get export orders for Block II it’s an aircraft that has matured and proved a great track record with 50 already delivered and serving, if you think about it its actually surprising that JF-17 Block I never made export orders since Mushak, Super Mushak and K-8 have all received good export orders from Kamra but like I have said before, if you are marketing a new plane and have a foreign engine in this case RD-93 from Russia it kills the deal
Technically speaking it shouldn’t, but it’s the first question people ask, “what engine is powering this aircraft” it doesn’t reflect well and as a result no orders for Block I, Sino-Pak have said in the past engine export issue is not the issue to exports if we can convince people then we are in business, if Block I had WS-13 right from the start the export story would have been much different, I guess WS-13 was not a priority for China as is WS-10 series or they had technical issues with it they couldn’t solve
Lastly I do think Block II is about a year late, really we should have had a squadron of Block II delivered by now but by the looks of things PAF is in no rush to fast track production since the production rate is essentially matching the retirement rate in the absence of export orders, we built 16 aircraft in 2010 then in 2011, 2012 and 2013 we were down to single digits, if we kept up that rate by now we should have built over 75 JF-17 aircraft but instead we are sitting at 50 produced units, we know that Kamra can build 25-30 aircraft a year flat out production
thunderchief
Senior Member
There are rumors on Indian forums that India pulled some strings with Russia in order to slow down and delay export of RD-93 to Pakistan . Yeah , I know that is not very reliable source
, but it could explain some things .There are rumors on Indian forums that India pulled some strings with Russia in order to slow down and delay export of RD-93 to Pakistan . Yeah , I know that is not very reliable source
It seems plausible, India is the largest remaining market for Russian arms industry and India has a lot of leverage.
What is the current status of the Chinese WS-13 engine that was suppose to supersede Rd-93?
Incidentally, isn't WS-13 also in the same class as the engine India is developing for its own medium combat aircraft?
Does this mean j-31 is in the same class as India's still vapor ware MCA?
SinoSoldier
Colonel
The J-31 uses (or will use) upgraded 100 kN engines which are significantly more powerful and has a greater thrust than the Kaveri.