JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

timepass

Brigadier
I see a 40+ million aircraft here. How do you expect PAF to afford it? My modest suggestion is to upgrade the engine and getting a more powerful radar. That would sound more reasonable.

Ya you are right.

The main concept behind the development of JF17 is basically a work horse with enough modern capabilities to stand in modern warfare as a multirole fighter.

PAF planned to induct JF17 in some numbers (around 250-350) in order to replace old & obsolete Mirage 3s & F7Ps.

What plawolf suggests for JF17, PAF have same with F16s A/B (MLU) & C/Ds plus J10Bs are in pipelines.
 

Munir

Banned Idiot
Those remarks are fine but there is a limit to that statement as a workhorse. This workhorse is bound to have enough potential to stop its adversary. And the adversary is continuously increasing in quantity and quality. So the specifications are changing for this workhorse which are seen in blocks. But just give me the value of the statement just a workhorse if you know that it has agility close to F16, Pilot interface close to Gripen, Good BVR, ASM, ARM, Cruise missiles etc etc and cheapest production and maintenance compared to anything in its field? I think it is called a workhorse in PAF cause it is going to do all the jobs Pakistan needs. But it is not that low tech.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I see a 40+ million aircraft here. How do you expect PAF to afford it? My modest suggestion is to upgrade the engine and getting a more powerful radar. That would sound more reasonable.

I don't see how the upgrades I suggested would be so expensive. The JF17 right now is quoted as costing between $20-25m a pop, so lets go with $25m.

The Chinese WS13 will probably actually save on cost because that's removing a middleman out of the equation. Similar thing with using newer construction techques like laser printing to build composit parts rather than use standard metals. The titanium alloy load baring supports recently reviled and rumoured to be used on the J20 and J31 are reported to save up to 40% of the weight of castes titanium parts, are stronger and more reliable and also significantly cheaper. Adopting such conduction methods could lower weight, save cost and improve the structural strength of the plane all in one go, which could potentially increase the JF17 to 9G+ quite easily.

Adding IFR and full digital all axis FBW is rumoured to already be well underway with the Blk2 aircraft, and the PAF has expressed a strong interest in AESA radar, so that looks to be something the JF17 will go for regardless. If we say an AESA costs $5m and the existing PD radar cost a couple of million or so, switching to AESA will result in a net cost increase of $2-3m, while the cost savings from a Chinese engine and using newer construction techques should pretty much cancel out the cost of adding IFR and full digital FBW.

The only big changes I am suggesting compared to what is already in the works or planned and whihc need to be paid for would be adding an IRST, a couple of mini hard points for pods and maybe conformal fuel tanks. I would not expect that to cost more than a couple million each.

So I don't think it could be unreasonable to think that this Blk3 JF17 could be had for little over $30m to be conservative, maybe as low as $25 if the current JF17 costs $20m.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Pakistan paid $800 million in 2009 for the build of 42 SP aircraft, I do not know if this included the 8 from SBP but that would put the unit cost of JF-17 Block I between say $18-20 million

Adding in aerial refuelling probe, new avionics package with C802 and radar to work with ZDK-03 I would say that Block is between $20-22 million a copy

For Block III if we make a twin seated, WS13, IRST, Composites etc we would see it raise to $25 million a copy

Building 12-15 units a year requires a procurement budget of around $300 million

Pakistan’s military budget has now crossed almost $7 billion a year, there’s been a big increase this year FYI 2013-2014, for the air force new equipment procurement $300 million is well within the scope, which means for the next 8 years we can keep building JF-17 in Block II and Block III variant’s

Having WS13 would be a great advantage as international customers would be satisfied and it would raise the profile of the fighter giving buyers more confidence, I do not know why it’s taking so long, with lessons from WS10 on J11B I would have thought that WS13 would have made it into Block II by now

First question many people ask is, what engine powers the aircraft? When you say Russian it’s not good, to get big export orders, a WS13 is a pre-request

I mean just look at the export orders for Mushshak, Super-Mushshak and K-8 trainers, the JF17 builds a perfect package and completes any air forces requirement’s

If export orders come in the PAC can start building 25-30 per year it will bring down the unit cost, essentially the production rate will be double
 
How good is the FC-1 in modern aerial combat? Would it be comparable to the F-16C? I know it has a lot of nice gadgets for a plane of its class, and so I'm sort of curious.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
How good is the FC-1 in modern aerial combat? Would it be comparable to the F-16C? I know it has a lot of nice gadgets for a plane of its class, and so I'm sort of curious.

JF-17 is rumored to be more maneuverable, but the KLJ-7 probably won't be quite as powerful as the one on the F-16C.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
A twin-seat JF-17 LIFT variant could possibly compete against South Korea's T-50 in the trainer / light attacker market?
 

ANTIBODY

New Member
Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

ISLAMABAD — Despite its crippling economic situation, Pakistan may be forced to fund its Air Force’s most important procurement programs on an emergency basis, or at least ensure sufficient finances for their regular progress.

Salma Malik, assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies, at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, said the “linkage between economic progress, energy sufficiency and security as well as physical security” has never before been so deeply felt in Pakistan.

This is highlighted by the predicament facing the Air Force, which has not received any finances for its modernization efforts since 2007 under the Armed Forces Development Plan 2025 (AFDP2025).

Also, it has received only a portion of its allocated share of the general defense budget under the recently ousted Pakistan People’s Party government.

In addition to the financial woes, Malik highlights the “qualitative” and “quantitative edge” of the India Air Force developed through “upgrades or procurements.”

Though not dismissing the myriad problems facing the Indians, she particularly highlighted the potential purchase of the French Rafale as the “most concerning for Pakistan.”

However, though she acknowledged that Air Force equipment is very expensive, the length of time between ordering a weapon such as a fighter aircraft and having it enter front-line service, dictates a “sense of urgency.”

Malik says this was most likely impressed upon Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, by the head of the Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, during a June 13 meeting, and therefore “some allocation might happen straightaway.”

This emergency funding, Malik believes, could be injected into programs formulated in response to Indian developments, like the AFDP2025, to get them back on track and funded regularly.

If this does come about then the main focus, according to analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, will be the building of more JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, “and inducting them into service fast to replace old Mirages and F-7 Fishbeds.”

He notes that pre-2007 programs have given the Air Force some breathing space.

“The air defense system has been upgraded with new radars and [command and control nodes, refuelers are in service, AEW&C are inducted, [beyond visual range] capability is acquired, Crotale SAM replacement is inducted.”

However, in the medium to long term, there are still concerns as the planned number of JF-17s has been slashed from 275 or 250 down to 150, which will not replace the current obsolete Mirages and F-7s on a one-for-one basis.

The J-10B/FC-20 program will also need to start progressing, and there is still a need for long-range SAMs, plus more Il-76 transport aircraft.

The FC-20 was supposed to enter service in the middle of the decade to form a high tech “spear tip” for Pakistani air power, but there appears to have been no progress with procurement.

Economic revival will dictate most action.

Among other economic woes, Pakistan is gripped by a crippling circular debt problem where the government and independent power producers owe each other huge amounts of money, hampering electricity generation to kick-start the economy.

The new government pledged to end this situation within 60 days of coming to power.

Analyst and former Army officer Ikram Sehgal is optimistic this will happen now that the previous government has been ousted from power.

“I have confidence that the economy will be turned around,” he said.

“The Pakistan economy is the most resilient in the world. If the [government of the PPP] could not bring it to its knees, then nothing can. It’s a question of management.”
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter


Pakistan is integrating its nuclear-capable Hatf VII/Vengeance VII Ra’ad air launched cruise missile onto its JF-17 Thunder aircraft.
Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood at the JF-17 Project Management Office said integration work was ongoing with Chinese and Pakistani weapons, and that “most weapons have been integrated”.

“Ra’ad and the H-4 [glide bomb] will be for the Block I and Block II” aircraft currently in or about to enter service, not just the forthcoming Block III variant, he said.

Former Air Force pilot and analyst Kaiser Tufail said "Ra’ad’s integration onto the JF-17 would be very beneficial.

“It would certainly add to PAF’s [Pakistan Air Force’s] stealthy ingress capability [due to low cross-section of the cruise missile]
 
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