Russia sold Pakistan RD-93 despite most of its sales going to India at one point.
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
Russia sold Pakistan RD-93 despite most of its sales going to India at one point.
Hi,
by the way Azeri airforce was flying twin engine mig29, can they afford to buy
J10s if it’s possible for them then why not they went for a better jet then the JF17
in terms of load and range with PL15 missiles
and are they getting in future PL15 with these JF17,
thank you
by the way Azeri airforce was flying twin engine mig29, can they afford to buy
J10s if it’s possible for them then why not they went for a better jet then the JF17
in terms of load and range with PL15 missiles
and are they getting in future PL15 with these JF17,
thank you
The news about Azerbaijan and JF-17 is starting to get more credible.
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And here you have the website of the President of Azerbaijan:
I think what's going on is they're probably using an existing aircraft for sake of integration while the designated aircrafts are under production. Part of integration can occur both in Pakistan and Azerbaijan.
Block IIIs are the best bang for buck Azerbaijan can get in the region and more than sufficient to run circles around anything Armenia or Iran has right now. In any case, it's a great win for Pakistan, Azerbaijan and China. This would'nt have happened without allignment of all 3.
Also, low-key opens options for Turkish F-4 replacements.
That quote is from head of GIDS, one of the most prominent arms manufacturers in Pakistan.
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And here you have the website of the President of Azerbaijan:
You dont do integration for the heck of it.
I think what's going on is they're probably using an existing aircraft for sake of integration while the designated aircrafts are under production. Part of integration can occur both in Pakistan and Azerbaijan.
Block IIIs are the best bang for buck Azerbaijan can get in the region and more than sufficient to run circles around anything Armenia or Iran has right now. In any case, it's a great win for Pakistan, Azerbaijan and China. This would'nt have happened without allignment of all 3.
Also, low-key opens options for Turkish F-4 replacements.
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They can, but choose not to.
We don't know anything about weapons, other than previous rumors that they want some Turkish ones. Maybe yes, maybe no?
Som for instance will be interesting - it's very light, and there's a decent chance fc-1 can take not 1-3 (as with raad normal/overload), but 3-5 of them - with second number being relevant due to main target being right next door.
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Because in legal terms J-10 is a Chinese plane and JF-17 is a Pakistani plane.
It doesn't matter that the construction is developed jointly or that it is derived from a Chinese aircraft and that most critical sub-systems are Chinese. Pakistan has the rights to JF-17 and does the final assembly and legally can replace any element in the plane and sell it to anyone it chooses. This means that if for whatever reason Azerbaijan didn't want Chinese components in their aircraft Pakistan can provide them with alternatives. That also includes weapons from countries other than China e.g. Turkey.
This is important because this purchase has nothing to do with China, and everything to do with Turkey and its relationship with Azerbaijan and Pakistan.
Turkey has very close relationship with Pakistan and cooperates with it militarily. But while Pakistan is a close ally of China, Turkey is still in NATO and so far nothing indicates that it plans to leave the alliance - the reasons being Russia but also the conflict over Cyprus with Greece.
Turkey has similarly close relationship with Azerbaijan and is also the de facto guarantor of Azerbaijan's security. This is important - since the 2000s relationship with Turkey, and not Russia (despite formal participation in CSTO), has become the foundation of Azerbaijan's foreign and defense policy and this relationship is only going to grow closer in the future. Turkey is expanding its influence in Central Asia among the Turkic nations (Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan etc) and Azerbaijan is a necessary stepping stone enabling Turkey to reach across the Caspian Sea. The biggest challenges for Turkey's expansion into Central Asia is the geography of the region which benefits air power most of all. This means that if Turkey wants to expand its influence, including in the area of security, it must reduce dependency on Russian aerospace technology among the Central Asian states. There is no better tool for that than JF-17 because it's cheap, multirole fighter that can integrate modern Chinese systems. This means that JF-17 with AESA radar will give hard time to any Russian fighter other than Su-57, which will be overwhelming majority of Russian air force in the coming 1-2 decades.
More here - several posts expanding on my hypothestis. They are long but I think they are well worth the read:
Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
@Stealthflanker Here's a recent, very informative thread from one of the most prominent Turkish journalists on MURAD GaN FCR and F-16 Özgür avionic mod. Wonder your thoughts about the given infos. It's unfortunately in Turkish but you should have no problem auto-translating it. AKINCI SİHA...
www.sinodefenceforum.com
What I described is a strategic longshot which focuses on ambitions and possibilities more than likely results, but I think it very well explains what we're seeing in Central Asia (or actually not seeing, since the region is largely forgotten by discourse). All the more relevant because of Russia's sudden weakening as consequence of war in Ukraine which will only speed up the process.
Also with JF-17 (almost) everyone wins which makes deals which are highly contingent on political suport easier to pass.
- Azerbaijan gets modern multirole aircraft which can replace old MiG-29s and Su-25s.
- Turkey ensures that its junior partner has capable air force not dependent on Russian technology where it matters most in combat - electronics and weapons.
- Pakistan gains an export customer which will improve reception of its product and potentially open markets in other Central Asian countries.
- China gets the reduction of Russian influence in Central Asia.
And if this deal turns out to be successful, which it has no reason not to, then it could naturally lead to:
Current inventory by Wiki:
- Kazakhstan - 14x MiG-29, 14x Su-25, 24x Su-27, 43x Su-30, 31xMiG-31
- Uzbekistan - 38x MiG-29, 13x Su-25, 25x Su-27
- Turkmenistan - 24x MiG29, 25x Su-25
I do not think 100% of Chinese subsystems can be replaced. In either case, JF-17 does not present something strategically vital in terms of Tech for China, China is generation and half ahead. I also think such agreement would 100% need a nod from China. Not 100% of the aircraft is produced in Pakistan. I also think China would 100% have no issues of JF-17 being sold to Azerbaijan, Turkey being in NATO or not. What tho possible is Pakistan likely have JF-17 export on a much higher priority than say China and seem to be doing decent amount of leg work to promote it, which is fine and honestly there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.
For this export to occur, technically and geopolitically, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Turkey and China all must be on the same page on this specific topic. It would be interesting which Engine is used, I dont think Russia would mind additional sales of RD-93s vs no sale at all and I dont think Americans will create a fuss over it because Azerbaijan is politically not pro Iran and because of close Azeri links with Israel who can always order AIPAC dominated Congress to smooth out any concerns.
Dude looks happy.
To be frank I’ve been pretty indifferent to JF-17 export news since getting burnt by Argentina. Maybe momentum for export is building again?
To be frank I’ve been pretty indifferent to JF-17 export news since getting burnt by Argentina. Maybe momentum for export is building again?
Now we have the answer for the highlighted question from GIDS. All weapons in this sell are from Pakistan.
“This is our third participation in the exhibition, and each time we bring new products. We already have several contracts under implementation regarding security equipment. But this time we are here with a special focus on the JF-17 airplane, which Azerbaijan is buying from Pakistan. Our company “GIDS” produces all the armament that is installed on this airplane - bombs and long-range weapons for the fighter aircraft,” Asad Kamal said.
I think Turkey may have initiated talks with Azerbeijan to sell weapons for JF-17, but it may not happen in the near future considering the recent little unpleasant complains from Erdogan. Maybe Erdogan got pissed off because he thought he got Azerbaijan locked in buying but lost the deal. This kind of complain is not just over a failed business deal, when made open it is on the strategic level and will be long in time and broad in scope.
Besides, if Pakistan can make the profit by selling their own weapons, why give up that money to anyone else? In the past Pakistan chose western subsystems over Chinese options because those western subsystems were acutally better than China's, even China tried hard to get them. Today, China's systems are on the top line. Those Pakistani weapons with Chinese assistance are as good as Turkish options if not better. The only reason I can think of for Azerbaijan to bet on Turkish system is an act of political favor or balance of powers, but what kind of string would Pakistan or China put on that is unpleasant to Azerbaijan? I can't think of one.
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Are they getting PL-10 or PL-5E?
The question here is Azerbaijan itself - they now have 3 sets of incompatible armament in their AF(Soviet/Russian; Turkish; Pakistani(Chinese)), all for different platforms.
While such redundancy is not only a minus- it is a problem.
we just don't know. But given it's mid-2020s, I'd expect higher options across the board.
China(Pakistan) isn't in a position to bully its customers with sparrow/aim-9m like US did with Iraq and Egypt.