I was talking about the Iranian drone.
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
I was talking about the Iranian drone.
Hmm, but that wasn't "live combat" though. Combat kind of requires both sides to be able to shoot at each other. Otherwise, it's just target practice.
Not necessarily. Not all military assets have offensive capabilities.
JF-17 supported strike package and wasn't attacked? How come the IAF and Indian air defence didn't attack the JF-17 and the PAF Mirages? Did they fire on the JF-17s and F-16s?
If F-16 taking that Mig-21 kill is about as easy for the F-16 as the JF-17 shooting down a rather slow moving drone. Apparently (I think according to both sides) the Mig-21 pilot was commanded to return but his communications were jammed.
The Indians struck Pakistan days prior. They were on high alert everywhere and were expecting a response. None of their fighters managed to shoot down any PAF aircraft somehow despite PAF sending in non-stealthy and relatively dated aircrafts into Indian airspace which should have been and probably was heavily contested as India would be on high alert for PAF response. It shouldn't be hard to shoot down some attacking Mirages with only a few JF-17 escorts and yet that wasn't managed.
Either this reflects extremely well on the JF-17 since they were at the frontline and pushing into Indian space with no other fighters supporting (AIM-120C doesn't stretch that long). The Mirages are also no more than bomb trucks and not responsible for keeping Indian fighters and air defences at bay.
Were the F-16s escorting as well? If hanging back and shooting AIM-120C, they don't have the range to do much except make the Indian fighter stay 50km or so away. The JF-17s were far further in and the SD-10s used are about similarly ranged.
It doesn't make sense that F-16s were performing what's essentially A2AD while hanging back and using similarly ranged A2A missiles that were being carried by JF-17s flying in. Either JF-17s themselves were using missiles too to push forwards since that's where the missiles would be effective! or the F-16s were escorting as well.
Either that or the PAF struck fast and somehow blinded the Indians long enough for the delay in response and left. Indians gave chase, denied access due to walls of A2A missiles and Mig-21 comms jammed and pilot went too far west.
If F-16 taking that Mig-21 kill is about as easy for the F-16 as the JF-17 shooting down a rather slow moving drone. Apparently (I think according to both sides) the Mig-21 pilot was commanded to return but his communications were jammed.
The Indians struck Pakistan days prior. They were on high alert everywhere and were expecting a response. None of their fighters managed to shoot down any PAF aircraft somehow despite PAF sending in non-stealthy and relatively dated aircrafts into Indian airspace which should have been and probably was heavily contested as India would be on high alert for PAF response. It shouldn't be hard to shoot down some attacking Mirages with only a few JF-17 escorts and yet that wasn't managed.
Either this reflects extremely well on the JF-17 since they were at the frontline and pushing into Indian space with no other fighters supporting (AIM-120C doesn't stretch that long). The Mirages are also no more than bomb trucks and not responsible for keeping Indian fighters and air defences at bay.
Were the F-16s escorting as well? If hanging back and shooting AIM-120C, they don't have the range to do much except make the Indian fighter stay 50km or so away. The JF-17s were far further in and the SD-10s used are about similarly ranged.
It doesn't make sense that F-16s were performing what's essentially A2AD while hanging back and using similarly ranged A2A missiles that were being carried by JF-17s flying in. Either JF-17s themselves were using missiles too to push forwards since that's where the missiles would be effective! or the F-16s were escorting as well.
Either that or the PAF struck fast and somehow blinded the Indians long enough for the delay in response and left. Indians gave chase, denied access due to walls of A2A missiles and Mig-21 comms jammed and pilot went too far west.
They were too late, the Strike package had already vectored back. The Mig tried to follow the strike package. That's how it flew into the Viper's kill box. The real failure was of the IAF Flankers and Mirage2Ks, which were supposed to be supporting the Mig. The PAF was monitoring IAF comms and later reported the Flanker/M2K pilots made up excuses about radar malfunctions and bingo fuel to disengage, as soon as the Vipers called Fox. They abandoned their Mig, basically.
To be fair, tactically, it's not easy at all, even for a competent foe. PAF fighters didn't need to enter Indian airspace to launch standoff munitions (even if they did, it must have been for a very short time.) Engagements like this happen in seconds.
But the extent of the IAF's failure was still astounding. The fact that they got bombed, had their comms and weapon systems jammed, abandoned their Mig, and fragged their own chopper in the space of a few minutes was a massive operational failure.
From a strategic perspective, the surprising aspect of this episode is not that the PAF succeeded in the operation, but the fact that it launched the operation. This was a clear act of war, in response to the (failed) Balakot strike by the IAF. When Pakistan responded, India backed down. This means that Pakistan was ready and willing to go to war, and India was not. It completely changed the dynamic in the region and exposed Indian deterrence, as Praveen Sawhney explained at the time. It must have been factored into PLA's calculus for Ladakh as well. As Sawhney has said multiple times, India is now fully defensive in its posture while Pakistan and China have all the initiative in this region. And this delta is only increasing with time.
But those assets are defended by other assets which do, in 'live combat.' The Iranian Air Force had no intention of actually engaging the PAF. We are not enemies.
India's response was astounding not only in how they conducted the battle but also like you pointed out, there being zero resolve to continue that fight. They say the PAF outnumbered them and delivered the strike quickly, ran off after that but if a Mig-21 was shot down by PAF, it gives them justification to bring the fight to Pakistan. They did not. The excuse that's given is by the time Su-30 and reinforcements arrived to deal with the Pakistanis, the PAF have long left the area. Well they also knew at that point their Mig was shot and possibly more. We know the Su-30MKI were involved which both sides recognise and India award their MKI with missile dodger "status". The whole thing makes no sense until you realise India probably didn't expect Pakistan to respond at all and so weren't as prepared as they should have been OR they were so thoroughly outclassed and realised it to have not engaged PAF in contested airspace or even into Pakistani airspace which they were probably justified in doing once their Mig was shot down. I mean they already flew in to Pakistan to attack it days prior after all.
JF-17 is the most capable PAF fighter that is supposedly allowed to be used outside of Pakistan. But using it in that operation at least shows PAF have certain confidence in its ability. It would reasonably assume Indians were on high alert and will put their best available to the fight. Maybe the F-16s were shooting off AMRAAMs to cover the returning JF-17s and Mirages but by that time the Indians already had Mig-21s, Mirage 2000s and Su-30MKIs in the air at least chasing after them. Why the MKIs and M2000s would abandon the mission and indirectly let their Mig fly in alone to the slaughter is curious. Did they make up instrument failure or were they actually jammed. MKI has exceptional range, so calling bingo is strange for a force that should have been on high alert and prepared at moments notice with weapons and fuel pretty much kept on hand around the clock if not having patrols flying constantly.
I suspect the IAF found out they were outclassed and did not choose to continue the fight despite objective lost, Mig shot, Mi-17 lost, and possibly a Su-30MKI as well. I don't put much stock into the MKI being shot down but it's suspicious this was announced first by both sides (correct me if I'm wrong here) and the Indians also weeks later admitted to losing two MKI pilots in a potential cover up explanation. Not only refusing to continue a fight that was clearly ongoing with Pakistan escalating and winning on exchange but also refusing to follow up on it. There was no retort to Swift Retort. There was a push to replace R-77 missiles and urgency in purchasing Rafales.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
The JF17s were close protection for the mirages and were carrying SD10s and the jamming pods that crippled the Mig21’s comms and mission killed the MKIs thereby forcing them to bug out.
F16s were CAP tasked with trying to intercept incomings before then could harass the strike package. They probably also stayed further back than normal for such missions to minimise the impact of the JF17 jamming pods on their systems since the US would not have allowed the sharing of sensitive radar operating frequencies that would have allowed Pakistan and China to properly integrate the F16’s radar and avionics with the JF17s Chinese made jammers.
The strike package was unmolested primarily because of the potency of the jamming, which essentially caused the entire IAF to Nope out of the entire AO. The Mig was only killed because its comms was jammed before he got the disengagement order and flew into range of the F16s. Had the MKIs not bugged out, they would very likely have suffered the same fate.
This is also why the IAF suddenly went cold on their previous favourite child MKIs and had to go begging France for Rafales.
What jamming pods do JF-17s carry? Do you mean KG600? It's such a low powered fighter. If a jamming pod from a light fighter can devastate MKI and Mirage 2000s with such ease, a similar tech pod on a heavy weight twin engine would make this the most important piece of military technology. Maybe the Pakistanis collected enough sensitive details on Mirage 2000 and MKI sensors and electronics somehow to pull off such an amazing feat that we're entertaining here or they were assisted by something not mentioned. There isn't a great amount of difference between JF-17 + F-16 and Mirage 2000s + MKI etc. The Erieye isn't a EA or EW platform at all. That wasn't it. It provided PAF with great situational awareness no doubt but it does not jam anything or pull ECCM tricks.
If it was simply JF-17's jamming at the frontline and while in return, somehow also degraded MKI and M2000s enough for them to be useless throughout the event, then that is mighty impressive EW/EA in such a relatively "low end" package too or the IAF is much, much less competent than people realise. Maybe they used something else that isn't mentioned.
Jamming is primarily tasked to the No.24 "Blinders" squadron.
But ECM is a multi-dimensional effort. Pods on fighters always help. It's about how much energy you can focus on any given angle in 3D space, and the more angles you can cover the better.
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