JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[MastanKhan]

@tphuand

About the deals---you will find out in due time---.

When it is the only aircraft in its category and price range---peop[le will come---and they have.

You won't get much truthful information about the JF17 for awhile---I put a stop to it some 3 + years ago when it was leaking like an over flowing sewer line.

The Paf don't want to release the true thrust to weight ratio information---otherwise you would have seen the JF17 tuck its wheels in--- right after ' lift offs ' at Paris and at other air shows---but no---it leaves them hanging out---creating a massive drag while climbing.

Basically---intentionally slowing down its climb---on purpose.

 

[jobjed]

@Deino

With the sanctions clouds looming over the F16's---and no other aircraft in line to fill a hole---what else would you think could be done---.

The J10 has been refused by the Paf multiple times---so the expectations fall on the JF17---a larger version like the F2 to the F16---.

A medium weight aircraft that could carry a load of 7--8000 KG's.

But the problem over here is that since the Paf disbanded the last bomber sqdrn decades ago---they have forgotten what a dedicated strike aircraft / bomber can do.

So what you're saying is that the PAF is refusing to buy the J-10 or even discuss the possibility of a tailored version for PAF purely out of spite for Army Gen Musharraf? Instead, they want to devote Pakistan's finite resources and finances towards developing a larger version of the JF-17 that might not even be successful and whose performance parameters line up pretty much with the J-10?

To a 3rd-party observer, this sounds - no offence - completely stupid. A larger version of the JF-17 already exists. It's called the J-10 and CAC is authorised to sell it. But no, the PAF won't have it, not because the J-10 is lacking in a crucial area but because the PAF would like to give Gen Musharraf the middle finger.

Is this what you're telling us? That some Pakistanis hate each other so much that they'll rather compromise their country's security and possibly survival just to screw with each other? If this is what you're telling us, I think Pakistan better get their military's priorities straight. The enemy are not fellow Pakistanis, it's a group of emotional people to the south that would very much like to see Pakistanis go extinct.

 

[Deino]

@Deino

With the sanctions clouds looming over the F16's---and no other aircraft in line to fill a hole---what else would you think could be done---.

The J10 has been refused by the Paf multiple times---so the expectations fall on the JF17---a larger version like the F2 to the F16---.

A medium weight aircraft that could carry a load of 7--8000 KG's.

But the problem over here is that since the Paf disbanded the last bomber sqdrn decades ago---they have forgotten what a dedicated strike aircraft / bomber can do.

Thanks for Your reply and YES, I can fully follow Your arguments; but I cannot understand the PAF if this is true - esp. like jobjed explained - it would be a shame if the PAF refuses the J-10 simply due to internal quarrels.

However to upscale the JF-17 to a medium-weight class multirole-type powered by a WS-10-class engine is IMO simply impossible for Pakistan due to several reasons:

1. budget: How much would it cost to develop such a type ? And it is not just a bit more here, a bit wider there, a bit larger here and there. To fit the required engine would mean to completely design a new aircraft with wider fuselage, larger intakes, larger wings, ... IMO 3-4 Billion $ including design, testing, certificating, production and engines + systems. And that all for a type that will bring NO benefits - other than expertise and showing some politicians the middle-finger - in comparison to the already available J-10. No way to found that IMO

2. expertise: Honestly and I hope this is not taken as an offence, but I question PAC/Kamra's abilities to do such a job on their own. Even if there is a 100% TOT concerning the JF-17, it is a different thing to do it alone ... and even more I don't think CAC will assist.

3. Common sense: Even if in terms of procurement we have already seen several "unwise" or even illogical decisions quite often, I think no-one in the current PAF-top-brass is so stupid ...


As such IMO a JF-17XXL or JF-18 will remain simply some sort of "wet-dream" but simply out of reach in reality.

Deino

 

[plawolf]

The only remotely justifiable argument for upscaling of the JF17 would be if they made it twin engined with a second RD/WS13 engine.

Then the argument would be the benefits (and costs) of twin engined vs single engine, so it would at least be a worth while alternative to the J10 instead to almost literally re-inventing the wheel, as a AL31/ WS10A powdered JF17 would be.

However, the amount of work needed to modify the JF17 so would be pretty much unprecedented in modern aviation, and that would be because it would probably be less work to just design a new twin engined fighter from scratch.

If Pakistan was bloody minded enough, it could probably do it, kind like how China made the J7 into the J8.

But the key difference is, back then, China had no alternative but to do that with its limited technical base and zero external sources of expertise or purchase options.

Pakistan has a perfectly suited off-the-shelf option available, so it really makes no sense to upscale the JF17 so.

If Pakistan has that kind of cash to burn, they are better off buying into the J31 or the rumoured CAC medium stealth project.

 

[Deino]

@plawolf

Excellent post !

 

[araz]

The only remotely justifiable argument for upscaling of the JF17 would be if they made it twin engined with a second RD/WS13 engine.

Then the argument would be the benefits (and costs) of twin engined vs single engine, so it would at least be a worth while alternative to the J10 instead to almost literally re-inventing the wheel, as a AL31/ WS10A powdered JF17 would be.

However, the amount of work needed to modify the JF17 so would be pretty much unprecedented in modern aviation, and that would be because it would probably be less work to just design a new twin engined fighter from scratch.

If Pakistan was bloody minded enough, it could probably do it, kind like how China made the J7 into the J8.

But the key difference is, back then, China had no alternative but to do that with its limited technical base and zero external sources of expertise or purchase options.

Pakistan has a perfectly suited off-the-shelf option available, so it really makes no sense to upscale the JF17 so.

If Pakistan has that kind of cash to burn, they are better off buying into the J31 or the rumoured CAC medium stealth project.

Agreed. The idea of a larger JFT without considering what is possible even with the currrent airframe is ludicrous. For instance we have heard that JFT has flown with 4 hardpoints on either wings but later this idea was dropped. If people are hell bent on making it a bomb/missile truck that can be initiated even before one looks at redesigning planes.Secondly even before that DER can be incporporated to allow JFT to carry 4BVRs +2 WVRs which should be enough for any confrontation in the Indo Pak arena.
The theory of an Air force rejecting a plane just because Musharraf forced it on them again needs to be qualified. What the poster does not know is that Standard protocol in PAF /PA is that once you become Chief you lose your benefits/pension. Instead you rely on 3-4% of a cut from any sale that happens in your tenure(Source is an Ex Air commodore in PAF and any of the senior members with sources in PA/PAF can confirm this or prove me wrong).So it seems unwise to think that any air chief would let go of his cut from the sale.
The jealousy of one of the Air chief(JKaleem Saadat) who lamented about how the order of Saabs was cut down to accomodate the buying of KE03 had many facets to it including his perception regarding reduced capability of the KE03. So I would ask the relevant poster to qualify and substantiate his statement. He was proven wrong but he did not perhaps see how quickly Chinese tech would mature.
So this whole debate has been based on a conjecture which has neither head nor tail. PAF has not desired any such fighter although the Thunder would continue to evolve based on technology available to it . F16s will continue to be acquired especially second hand ones for MLU as this is the most practical option for PAF in the intermediate term. Long term option for PAF would most likely be J31 when it becomes available. We neither have the money , nor the technical ability nor the desire to change something which works for us into an entity with unknown outcomes.
Regards
A

 

[[email protected]]

but I cannot understand the PAF if this is true - esp. like jobjed explained - it would be a shame if the PAF refuses the J-10 simply due to internal quarrels.

I just don't know why a senior member whom we (i believe you also know him) from other forum has coined this INTERNAL QUARREL' theory, as the matter of fact is PAF bought 31 F-16 (18 blk-52+ & 13 F-16 ADF version) out of 77 i.e. ~40% of the F-16 fleet from the FUNDS OF ARMY .... Mastan Khan must be aware of this ....

other then this PAF & PA tried to achieve synergy of operations in last decade & exhibited these capabilities in Swat valley operation & in the latest Military operation named Operation Zarb-e-Azab with excellence .

It is because of this reason PAF is in the process of creating a center of excellence name Air-power Center of Excellence (ACE) with the idea to institutionalize the concept (a refine form of Air-land battle as per current environment & more modern resources) where not only PAF personals will get trained but Army personals as well & will also make it available to other friendly countries.

However to upscale the JF-17 to a medium-weight class multirole-type powered by a WS-10-class engine is IMO simply impossible for Pakistan due to several reasons:

1. budget: How much would it cost to develop such a type ? And it is not just a bit more here, a bit wider there, a bit larger here and there. To fit the required engine would mean to completely design a new aircraft with wider fuselage, larger intakes, larger wings, ... IMO 3-4 Billion $ including design, testing, certificating, production and engines + systems. And that all for a type that will bring NO benefits - other than expertise and showing some politicians the middle-finger - in comparison to the already available J-10. No way to found that IMO

2. expertise: Honestly and I hope this is not taken as an offence, but I question PAC/Kamra's abilities to do such a job on their own. Even if there is a 100% TOT concerning the JF-17, it is a different thing to do it alone ... and even more I don't think CAC will assist.

3. Common sense: Even if in terms of procurement we have already seen several "unwise" or even illogical decisions quite often, I think no-one in the current PAF-top-brass is so stupid ...


As such IMO a JF-17XXL or JF-18 will remain simply some sort of "wet-dream" but simply out of reach in reality.

Deino

Sorry to say this is not the main question that JF-17 will have any UP-SCALE VERSION or not the real question is

WHY DO SOME PAKISTANIS WANT AN UP-SCALE VERSION OF JF-17 ... ?

& the answer is very simple because of their inherent 'Psychological Fear' about the F-16 .... they want an alternative of F-16 which till 2008 was not even able to fire BVR neither had ECM/EW capabilities in Pakistani fleet, they want a solution (or I should say a 'CURE' to their fear) which can replace F-16.

Now the question arise WHY DO THEY WANT JF-17 TO BE THAT IDEALIZED SOLUTION .... ??

Again answer is very simple because JF-17 is the only option available to PAF with in-house manufacturing facility & is less prone to sanctions ...

It is only because of this reason they want JF-17 to take-up the role of F-16, but they fail to realize JF-17 was designed to perform different task which are also very important & JF-17 even in its current form is far more capable than that F-16s which were available to Pakistan before their MLU upgrades or blk- 52+ acquisition.

They Fail to realize till 2005 PAF was a 2nd generation Air force & were mainly flying F-5, F-6, F-7 & Mirage III/V jets ... most of the F-16 were grounded or were available for limited time & operations we had no AWE&C aircraft, no C4ISR sys. & had no capability of real time data link, now all of this things are in place with in short span of 8-10 years & with very limited availability of funds we added ~125 fourth generation aircraft while our only enemy have added approximately 120-140 during the same period & within 12-18 months time period we are about to add up to 36 (up to 20 confirmed+ 16 near to official confirmation) more fighter jets, we added 8 AWE&C while they have only 3 .... I can go on & on but that will only lengthen the post unnecessarily

So to cut my long post short I will say

1- Even in Current state JF-17 offer more diversification & multi role capability over F-16 fleet in Pakistan (including F-16 blk-52+) in terms of WEAPON PACKAGE

2- Capability wise PAF is now a Fourth Generation Air Force with the availability of NETCENTRIC & FORCE MULTIPLIER ASSETS

3- J-10 or any other 4/4++ generation jet from China does not offer any diversification of capabilities or advantage other then Range & Payload which in case of Geographic realities of Pakistan & close proximity of targets in India is not a NECESSITY for Pakistan to acquire

4- It is because of this reason PAF is focused on NEXT GENERATION Option

5- & last but not the least there is no cure to the FEAR of some Pakistanis due to F-16 saga ....

 

[Deino]

Thanks a lot !

 

[plawolf]

I just don't know why a senior member whom we (i believe you also know him) from other forum has coined this INTERNAL QUARREL' theory, as the matter of fact is PAF bought 31 F-16 (18 blk-52+ & 13 F-16 ADF version) out of 77 i.e. ~40% of the F-16 fleet from the FUNDS OF ARMY .... Mastan Khan must be aware of this ....

other then this PAF & PA tried to achieve synergy of operations in last decade & exhibited these capabilities in Swat valley operation & in the latest Military operation named Operation Zarb-e-Azab with excellence .

It is because of this reason PAF is in the process of creating a center of excellence name Air-power Center of Excellence (ACE) with the idea to institutionalize the concept (a refine form of Air-land battle as per current environment & more modern resources) where not only PAF personals will get trained but Army personals as well & will also make it available to other friendly countries.




Sorry to say this is not the main question that JF-17 will have any UP-SCALE VERSION or not the real question is

WHY DO SOME PAKISTANIS WANT AN UP-SCALE VERSION OF JF-17 ... ?

& the answer is very simple because of their inherent 'Psychological Fear' about the F-16 .... they want an alternative of F-16 which till 2008 was not even able to fire BVR neither had ECM/EW capabilities in Pakistani fleet, they want a solution (or I should say a 'CURE' to their fear) which can replace F-16.

Now the question arise WHY DO THEY WANT JF-17 TO BE THAT IDEALIZED SOLUTION .... ??

Again answer is very simple because JF-17 is the only option available to PAF with in-house manufacturing facility & is less prone to sanctions ...

It is only because of this reason they want JF-17 to take-up the role of F-16, but they fail to realize JF-17 was designed to perform different task which are also very important & JF-17 even in its current form is far more capable than that F-16s which were available to Pakistan before their MLU upgrades or blk- 52+ acquisition.

They Fail to realize till 2005 PAF was a 2nd generation Air force & were mainly flying F-5, F-6, F-7 & Mirage III/V jets ... most of the F-16 were grounded or were available for limited time & operations we had no AWE&C aircraft, no C4ISR sys. & had no capability of real time data link, now all of this things are in place with in short span of 8-10 years & with very limited availability of funds we added ~125 fourth generation aircraft while our only enemy have added approximately 120-140 during the same period & within 12-18 months time period we are about to add up to 36 (up to 20 confirmed+ 16 near to official confirmation) more fighter jets, we added 8 AWE&C while they have only 3 .... I can go on & on but that will only lengthen the post unnecessarily

So to cut my long post short I will say

1- Even in Current state JF-17 offer more diversification & multi role capability over F-16 fleet in Pakistan (including F-16 blk-52+) in terms of WEAPON PACKAGE

2- Capability wise PAF is now a Fourth Generation Air Force with the availability of NETCENTRIC & FORCE MULTIPLIER ASSETS

3- J-10 or any other 4/4++ generation jet from China does not offer any diversification of capabilities or advantage other then Range & Payload which in case of Geographic realities of Pakistan & close proximity of targets in India is not a NECESSITY for Pakistan to acquire

4- It is because of this reason PAF is focused on NEXT GENERATION Option

5- & last but not the least there is no cure to the FEAR of some Pakistanis due to F-16 saga ....

Excellent post, although I would dispute one point, which is the benefits a true 4.5 gen fighter, like the J10B/C or Eurocanard would bring over the JF17.

The JF17 is good, but it's not THAT good.

In its current form, it is a middle of the pack 3-4th gen fighter in terms of performance (but so cheap it comes out well ahead of most in terms of cost effectiveness). The various planned block upgrades will bring it to 4-4.5 gen standards in terms of radar and avionics, but its overall core aerodynamics design will still be rooted in the current 3-4 gen bracket.

I think a lot of the talk about upscaling the fighter is ultimately driven by the realisation of this fact.

The thinking is to 'update' the core aerodynamic design no bring that up to 4.5 gen standards alongside the planned internal upgrades to make it into a thoroughbred 4.5 gen fighter.

Adding all those structural changes would add weight, so naturally some people think using a far more powerful engine will solve that problem.

Without such a fundamental structural redesign, even after all the planned blk upgrades have been implemented, there will still be a significant performance gap between the 'JF17 Ultimate' and a true thoroughbred 4.5 gen fighter like the J10B/C or Rafale (if the IAF ever actually goes through with the deal).

The JF17 can carry a radar made by the same manufacturer as the AESA for the J10C, using the same tools and components, but it will be less capable because of the size differences between the two sets. The same will apply to pretty much every other piece of key kit onboard. It all might be the same generation tech level, but because bigger plans have more room and power capacity, they can fit more powerful versions of the same kit onboard.

Similarly, a JF17 designed using 3rd gen aerodynamics is unlikely to outfly a J10C designed on 4.5 gen aerodynamics in WVR (although if both are using HMS and off broadside AAMs, how much practical difference that will make will be largely academic in my view).

There has never been any dispute that has there is a significant capabilities gap between the J10 and JF17, that has never been the question or issue.

The thing that keeps snagging the long rumoured PAF J10 deal is tied to the F16.

With the US aggressively pushing late gen F16s, which are also massively subsidised by US foreign military aid to Pakistan, it makes a lot of sense for Pakistan to take advantage of that and stock up on F16s that ultimately probably costs them less than what they would pay for JF17s after all the aid grants are taken into account.

On top of that, there are the training and logistics economies to be had from adding more of a type you already operate over a totally new type.

 

[[email protected]]

With the US aggressively pushing late gen F16s, which are also massively subsidised by US foreign military aid to Pakistan

Just a correction

NOT A SINGLE i repeat NOT A SINGLE F-16 was bought with US money ....