JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[thunderchief]

When early models are put out, they tend to be basic. They evolve to higher weight, with more powerful engines, and more capabilities. The examples are numerous.

When it comes to specific fighters, you can not merely state a generality and be done with your analysis. One necessarily has to get into the details. JF-17 has plenty going for it. Any comparison that talks about JF-17 vs SU-30 MKI in a one-on-one scenario, is misleading. There are many contingencies that weigh against both fighters, ignoring them would not result in a worth-while analysis.

Every fighter type that continues to be in production and service would naturally be upgraded during that time . I'm certain that JF-17 would get better avionics, engines, new weapons . But so would Su-30 MKI . Both fighters have some limitations stemming from their fuselage size and shape. Those limitations could not be overcomed without creating essentially new aircraft .

 

[asif iqbal]

Ok back to topic

2P20 spotted at PAC

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[MastanKhan]

The need of a larger aircraft arises out of neccessity. If you don't like what is available---then you have to build up on what you have and what you believe works---.

A 25% larger JF17 would be the most optimal size---which could carry a load of upto and around 7-8 K kgs---good sized radar in the nose cone---has a good loiter time.

Actually 25% larger aircraft was the " original design ".

And why would Kamra do it---why not the same place that manufactured the JF17---. I think that it maybe upto a 100 million project---.

Pakistani perception is that as the Swedes are relying on the Grippen to take on the Russian air force---why can't the Paf take on the opponent with an aircraft of similar capabilities to the Gripen---the JF17.

They say---both Pakistan and sweden are facing similar kinds of aircraft in combat.

So---for them---the JF17 must do it all---because the Grippen will supposedly do the same.

What they don't realize and don't want to acknowledge and admit is that behind Sweden---stands the might of the Nato air battle group which is an ear shot away and won't need any invitation to jump right into the fray with all its might.

For pakistan---there is no such saviour at hand.

I would say again that the JF17 is an excellent COMPLIMENTARY aircraft---.

It is a perfect ' primary ' aircraft for many a nation---but not for Pakistan---which faces an opponent with 3 times the numbers of medium to heavy aircraft.

If Paf does not want the J10 and does not want to spend for a larger JF17 and does not like anything else---then it needs to get the JH7B---.

 

[jobjed]

If Paf does not want the J10

That's what we're all confused about. Why doesn't the PAF want the J-10?

 

[Ali Qizilbash]

@jobjed Please again read post no 2767. Your confusion will end. BUT the confusion of some Pakistani members hell bent on doomsday scenario wont.

 

[Deino]

The need of a larger aircraft arises out of neccessity. If you don't like what is available---then you have to build up on what you have and what you believe works---.

A 25% larger JF17 would be the most optimal size---which could carry a load of upto and around 7-8 K kgs---good sized radar in the nose cone---has a good loiter time.

Actually 25% larger aircraft was the " original design ".

And why would Kamra do it---why not the same place that manufactured the JF17---. I think that it maybe upto a 100 million project---.

Pakistani perception is that as the Swedes are relying on the Grippen to take on the Russian air force---why can't the Paf take on the opponent with an aircraft of similar capabilities to the Gripen---the JF17.

They say---both Pakistan and sweden are facing similar kinds of aircraft in combat.

So---for them---the JF17 must do it all---because the Grippen will supposedly do the same.

What they don't realize and don't want to acknowledge and admit is that behind Sweden---stands the might of the Nato air battle group which is an ear shot away and won't need any invitation to jump right into the fray with all its might.

For pakistan---there is no such saviour at hand.

I would say again that the JF17 is an excellent COMPLIMENTARY aircraft---.

It is a perfect ' primary ' aircraft for many a nation---but not for Pakistan---which faces an opponent with 3 times the numbers of medium to heavy aircraft.

If Paf does not want the J10 and does not want to spend for a larger JF17 and does not like anything else---then it needs to get the JH7B---.

Thanks again for Your explanation but again a few issues I still don't understand:

1. why was the original design 25% larger ??? As far as I remember, the original design was the Super-7, a design actually based on the true J-7-series and as such never 25% larger. If Pakistan had wanted the later JF-17 already larger, why then smaller from the start ? Only due to cost and engine issues ???

2. I still can't agree with You on Your cost estimation: 100 Mio. $ to develop a new aircraft is completely impossible !

3. I still question the stubbornness of the PAF brass: to waste such an amount of money only to offend former leaders, to ignore the available J-10 simply due to pride ... so stupid can't ever be any seriously thinking Airforce leadership.

Deino

 

[imranyounus]

I think one must also keep in mind that JF17 is not just a plane for Pakistan it is a project.

Some thing to build a capabality. So it is perfectly understandable that thay will keep working on it and develop it further.

Another thing is that unlike other AFs PAF will like to operate minimum variations.

And since they are looking at J31 in next 5 to 8 years. They will not like to add another platform.

 

[tphuang]

j-31 would be a good option if they don't like J-10, but nobody knows if it will be ready in 5 to 8 years or if they will be allowed for export at that point. Also, PAF has rarely cooperated with SAC in the recent history.

CAC is not likely to design a larger variant of JF-17 that's exactly the same size and payload as J-10. Such a project would also cost far more than $100 million. If PAF doesn't like JF-17 or J-10 as they stand, then they are still free to purchase from other countries. JH-7 series is not an option if PAF wants an aircraft that does A2A combat. This has to be one of the strangest non-ending debate in the recent history.

 

[siegecrossbow]

CAC is not likely to design a larger variant of JF-17 that's exactly the same size and payload as J-10. Such a project would also cost far more than $100 million. If PAF doesn't like JF-17 or J-10 as they stand, then they are still free to purchase from other countries. JH-7 series is not an option if PAF wants an aircraft that does A2A combat. This has to be one of the strangest non-ending debate in the recent history.

I agree that JH-7 is probably too specialized for Pakistan. They probably want light-medium fighters capable of handling a variety of missions.

 

[MastanKhan]

@siegecrossbow

Actually---the JH7B is the perfect aircraft for pakistan---why---with its longer range and loiter time---it can be used to strike at targets which were never in the range of paf for the last 70 years.

It can also be used to watch over the sea for its shipping lanes as well---the longer it can fly and the more AShM per aircraft it can carry would keep the opponents navy farther away.

Imagine a map of pakistan---Gwadar---. The plane takes off from Dalbandin air base---flies over Gwadar straight down at a slight angle flying parallel to the opponents coastline---has air to air refuelling 100+ miles over the arabian seas-------flies further down 250-300 then make a 90 degrees left turn towards the coastline---from a distance of 200 miles it launches the Hatf 8 the ALCM---or maybe---pak has developed an air launched version of Babur cruise missile---so what will happen is that the strike force will hit the flank---that has never been targetted before---the one that is the money center of the opponent.

What will happen is---to protect its vulnerable flank---the opponent will have to move major air assets from the northern front to this coastal region---and still it won't be able to protect its flank---because it is so vast and open.

Next----do the same from Peshawar and Gilgit---fly over the himalayas and see how far the reach is.

My 1st choice would have been the SU34---then the J16---but as they are not available---I would settle for the JH7B.

For pakistan---when chosing on major weapons systems---and ;looking at past experiences---there must always be a second choice ready at hand.