JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[MastanKhan]

Bad blood between Paf and its other forces is very well known and documented.

A PIA Pilot over the arabian seas coming in for landing at karachi reports to the tower that he is seeing a battle ship towing missile boats behind it coming towards karachi---the tower call the air force command---who calls the air chief marshall and asks for instructions---remember---it is 1971 and we are at war with india---the air chief states---it is navy's problem---let them handle it---.
Karachi port was destroyed.
An atlantique with 19 or 39 trainee officer takes off from a karachi naval air base and heads towards the indian border---the air force knows that the indians are not very happy over their aircraft being shot down at Kargil---they do not send any escort aircraft to protect the atlantique---it gets shot down close the border by the enemy aircraft---.
Army launches a tank strike into enemy territory to cut off the enemy flank and circle the enemy army---they ask for air support---the air force states---we are busy elsewhere---we don't have time or resource---the armor strike force gets decimated by the enemy air force---getting shot like ducks in a gallery---.
These are documented incidences.
Similarly---when Gen Musharraf cancelled the saab awacs and ordered the chinese---the reaction from the air force is also documented---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Now---does the Paf want a larger aircraft---not untill and unless the public puts some pressure on them---otherwise---they are happy with what they have---.

The sure and pure goal for the JF17 was not the defense of pakistan---but to have an industrial base where the air force hierarchy could have jobs after retirement and with the sale of the aircraft make some good money for themselves.

Other than that---where does a light weight JF17 aircraft fit in when facing an opponent with M2K's Mig29's su30's in its arsenal.

A wonderful aircraft that the JF17 may become with the right package---but still it remains a light weight fighter aircraft.

With the French EW package it would have been an extremely potent aircraft---but that would not have changed its weight class.

Now as for using the J31---the paf still has to fill a large hole with 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft to compliment the 5th gen aircraft.

There has to be a heavy aircraft to compliment the J31.

 

[MastanKhan]

@tphuang

Is it fair to say that the J10 is a superior aircraft to the JF17 in all mannerism of flight and fight.

For me---it is china's blue eyed baby---their pride and joy---. They are busy investing in this aircraft to make it the best with the given resources that they have.

We are seeing total lack of any legitimate information leaking out for awhile now regarding the J10's---C & D's---the J20's---the J31's---11's or 15's---.

Would that mean that some of the EW systems in these aircraft are reaching a pleteau that would be of serious concern to the opponent---I man to say that there is a total blackout of information leaking out.

Now going back to the JF17---Paf never though that they would be shot down by the French over the EW suite---. It broke the Paf's back---they were shattered beyond belief---the high and mighty got slammed to the dirt---why---because they had done the same to the French---ain't payback a bi-tch.

After 9/11---the French were ready for an order of either the M2K's or the Rafale as well as Air Bus passenger aircraft---on a fastrak.

Air bus talks had started before 9/11---and after wards pakistan turned 180 deg and went for the Boeing with a promise of direct flights to the U S which never happened.

After 9/11---French were desperate to sell the Rafale---pakistan the prime candidate put the French on a hummer and to the shock of all ordered 18 F16's BLK52's.

Now can you imagine---if Paf had gotten 18 rafales---in 2002-03 and then later the French having delivered the EW suite and weapons for the JF17's---the Paf would have been singing a different song.

And by this time we would have had 150 plus JF17's---all equiped with what is that Thales / Sagem equipment---.

So---what does that come down to---bad planning by the Paf---not understandig the needs of the French---not understand their desperation to sell the Rafale---.

And knowingly not accepting the fact that the sanctions from the U S would be coming one more time after 10---15 years of good relations.

 

[MastanKhan]

@tphuang

The current and future utility of the JF17---in its current size does not disappear---they have already inducted 70 + aircraft and 80 to come--but then they still need a larger aircraft.

If they don't want to buy the J10 and the SU35 is too heavy for maintenance for them and the Eurofighter is too expensive---then where does it leave the air force---.

It would be cheaper to develop a slightly scaled up version of the JF17---and have Turkey and Italy develop and Ew suite for it---.

If under all duress---there was no issue with the engine for the current JF17's---there won't be any issue for the engine of a larger JF17--2.0

The thing is that the JF17 is going to sell---there is a huge market for it---Paf entered the sales floor unprepared without proper analysis of what was needed---the 2 seater---.

When the JF17 sells---then by default---the next size up would sell as well to the same buyers.

 

[Deino]

Hey guys ... I'm back from vacation in France !

@ MasterKhan

First of all I hope You did not get my last post as a personnel offence; it was surely not meant that way esp. since I deeply respect your opinion and Your posts here at the SDF.

However I was probably a bit rude since I was surprised to see such a post from You ... I'm always wondering - especially in some other forums - why so many still think the JF-17 should be "up-scaled" to a fighter in the class of the J-10; I simply don't get it.

Anyway ... all the best,
Deino

 

[tphuang]

@tphuang

The current and future utility of the JF17---in its current size does not disappear---they have already inducted 70 + aircraft and 80 to come--but then they still need a larger aircraft.

If they don't want to buy the J10 and the SU35 is too heavy for maintenance for them and the Eurofighter is too expensive---then where does it leave the air force---.

It would be cheaper to develop a slightly scaled up version of the JF17---and have Turkey and Italy develop and Ew suite for it---.

If under all duress---there was no issue with the engine for the current JF17's---there won't be any issue for the engine of a larger JF17--2.0

The thing is that the JF17 is going to sell---there is a huge market for it---Paf entered the sales floor unprepared without proper analysis of what was needed---the 2 seater---.

When the JF17 sells---then by default---the next size up would sell as well to the same buyers.

JF-17 is underpowered as it is. The T/W ratio for J-10 is much better. What engine are they going to use for JF-17 2.0 that's close to J-10 size? Please come up with a real engine.

As for huge market for JF-17, we just haven't seen that yet. And that's even with AVIC1 promoting it over J-10.

 

[FORBIN]

And the order for 36 J-10 a joke

 

[thunderchief]

@thunderchief
What do you mean by saying the JF17 will not up against larger aircraft---off course it will---.

That is what it is designed to fight---to go one on one---just wait and see to what is coming in the next couple of years.

In case of war between Pakistan and India ( God forbid of course, but we have to discuss this possibility) , I'm certain that PAF would not send JF-17 to confront Su-30 MKI without help of either AEW&C aircraft or ground (sea) radars . Reason is simple, heavy fighters have room for much larger radars and other sensors , and they have much more power coming from engines to power all those things Therefore, they see first, shoot first and usually win.

Indeed, looking from WW1 until present time, fighter aircraft are becoming larger and heavier. With few exceptions, every fighter type in existence was or will be replaced with something bigger . As I said, only realistic advantage light fighters have is their price .

 

[Zahid]

@FORBIN Order of 36 J-10s was not a joke. It was widely reported. However, PAF decided to pursue JF-17.

@thunderchief When early models are put out, they tend to be basic. They evolve to higher weight, with more powerful engines, and more capabilities. The examples are numerous.

When it comes to specific fighters, you can not merely state a generality and be done with your analysis. One necessarily has to get into the details. JF-17 has plenty going for it. Any comparison that talks about JF-17 vs SU-30 MKI in a one-on-one scenario, is misleading. There are many contingencies that weigh against both fighters, ignoring them would not result in a worth-while analysis.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Deino

With the sanctions clouds looming over the F16's---and no other aircraft in line to fill a hole---what else would you think could be done---.

The J10 has been refused by the Paf multiple times---so the expectations fall on the JF17---a larger version like the F2 to the F16---.

A medium weight aircraft that could carry a load of 7--8000 KG's.

But the problem over here is that since the Paf disbanded the last bomber sqdrn decades ago---they have forgotten what a dedicated strike aircraft / bomber can do.