JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[tphuang]

There seems to be 3 paradigms looking at JF-17:
1) Chinese
2) Pakistani
3) Everyone else

I'm just going with the Chinese one here, since I'm most familiar with it. JF-17 started off as something that would offer early 4th or pre-4th generation (or 3rd generation in PLAAF terminology) capability and be an extremely cheap replacement for J-7s (cheap compared to J-10s). As the development went, I would say JF-17 has exceeded that original expectations. Although I haven't seen it myself, those who have seen JF-17 doing flight tests in CAC would tell you that you simply can't compare its flight performance to even the newest J-7s and that it should be looked at as a 4th generation (or 3rd generation for PLAAF) aircraft. It does support what seems to be basic multi-role capability for a 4th generation aircraft and can engage mutliple targets with BVR weaponry. It''s not going to have huge range or payload, but it should be sufficient for air defense roles in Pakistan. With the right training/tactics and support from early warning radar and AWACs, I think it can probably handle most threats from IAF right now. If you ask it to venture into IAF air space to attack targets, that might be too much. But it's certainly a generation ahead of the aircraft it is replacing. And it's pretty cheap, which fits with PAF budgets.

 

[Zahid]

I am going to repost information that has already been posted about FC-1/JF-17, just so that some context is established.

Information from CATIC presentation at Dubai 2011:

FC-1 Range etc....















Notice Range, Payload, Max G, ECM, etc... Also presence of differential horizontal tail, which explains its great roll performance.

Aside from the above: Reportedly RD-93MA with 9300 KgF engine is available from Klimov. Pakistan has not shown interest as of yet. PAF is satisfied with the current RD-93.

With TWR much above 0.90, the aircraft performance is satisfactory. One should compare it with Gripen to see where this bird stands. TWR above 1.0 is not a must-have magic number.

FC-1 manages energy very well and looses less of it in a tight turn as compared to F-16. The design of FC-1 took into account the challenges this bird would have to face.

 

[Zahid]

About KLJ-7V2

Assembled at PAC, Kamra, Pakistan



Range, according to Kanwa - interview with PAF's Javaid Ahmad


Notice that range of KLJ-7V2 for 5 sqM target is stated as 130 KM. That means around 110 KM for 3 sqM target. This matches the Radar very well with SD-10B's range.

 

[Zahid]

Janes Dec 2005 - Max speed Mach 1.8:



Max speed numbers are quite irrelevant in any case. Usually Mirage III could at most be taken to Mach 1.7 by pilots at PAF. For it to cross Mach 2, the mission profile had to be planned very carefully in sync with weather conditions and had to be flown a certain way - according to AC (R) Kaiser Tufail, a well-known PAF pilot.

FC-1 / JF-17 is designed to face, challenge, and survive IAF assets. It is not meant for deep strike, but it will have Air-Launched Cruise Missile launch capability. One can well imagine what that means.

In passing, I must also mention that with IFR it can increase range and perform valuable naval role as well with C-802 and CM-400AKG.

This multi-role bird is a good numbers plane in a Hi/Lo mix for a mid-high level Air Force. For a small-medium level air force, it provides 4th generation capabilities at affordable cost and low operational expenses.

In this and above posts, I have not provided any information that has not already been posted on SDF. I hope people keep this information in mind when discussing FC-1 / JF-17, because this is more relevant than outdated and old information that is often used.

 

[no_name]

From the top view prototype 1 reminds me of F-16

 

[foxmulder]

Zahid, this is the explanation I was looking for. I was approaching this with an open mind and even defended your aircraft when someone compared it to a “modified” Mig-21.

That's you "defending" the aircraft?! LOL.

You are agreeing with that statement and basically making fun of people who would be offended by it. Do you think people cannot see through your "objective" statements?

 

[broadsword]

Mirage's knowledge was based on outdated information from other sources, which has not updated their data. Those data when compared with the Tejas don't add up to the optimism here. Initially, when I studied the data of both fighters in Wikipedia, I was also perplexed like him. It was only when I followed the developments here did I know that the JF-17 was no longer the same animal. The reason he waded into this issue could be because it is one of the options for Argentina to consider.

 

[Dizasta1]

Mirage driver, your analysis of the JF-17 Thunder is much appreciated. I admire the objective approach with which you have assessed the JF-17 Thunder. There are many good points you have raised and many aspects of the Thunder's capability envelope which need to be addressed. I am certain, that the Pakistan Air Force leadership is already aware of the Thunder's advantages and limitations vis-a-vis, the adversary's capabilities.

All I would like to say this; every country has its requirements, aspirations and limitations. It would be wonderful to have all the bells and whistles for your air force's combat fleet. But in the real world, those sort of luxuries are probably limited to countries with overblown defence budgets or who're industrialized enough to call themselves first world countries.

Pakistan, is not one of them. Not only do we not have the luxury of having a big chunk of funds from the govt in the form of a defence budget. But we have, experienced damaging sanctions over decades. Hence a country like Pakistan and it's military doesn't have the luxury to have delusional dreams of building blue water navy, or an Air Force which is capable of fighting two adversaries at once. No, the thinking is quite blunt with Pakistan and that is, aim to establish as close an ability to become indigenous, as possible. To maneuver strategically toward immunity to military sanctions.

It is this sort of approach which bore the JF-17 Thunder.

Whatever it's limitations are, whatever it's inferiority is compared to other aircraft. It is still one combat aircraft which cannot be affected by sanctions of the West. It is still one aircraft which is produced by a country that Pakistan knows is a true ally.

I am sure you of all people on this forum would know better, Miragedriver, how damaging it is to be isolated by sanctions. When Britain convinced France to stop supplying the Exocet Missiles. It was due to the fact that Britain witnessed first hand, it's ship sunk by a country determined to fight back against imperialism and hegemony.

So to is the case with Pakistan, where we are determined to cut-off any ability of any country to sanction us or limit our ability to defend ourselves.

 

[Miragedriver]

Mirage's knowledge was based on outdated information from other sources, which has not updated their data. Those data when compared with the Tejas don't add up to the optimism here. Initially, when I studied the data of both fighters in Wikipedia, I was also perplexed like him. It was only when I followed the developments here did I know that the JF-17 was no longer the same animal. The reason he waded into this issue could be because it is one of the options for Argentina to consider.

Thank you

 

[Miragedriver]

Mirage driver, your analysis of the JF-17 Thunder is much appreciated. I admire the objective approach with which you have assessed the JF-17 Thunder. There are many good points you have raised and many aspects of the Thunder's capability envelope which need to be addressed. I am certain, that the Pakistan Air Force leadership is already aware of the Thunder's advantages and limitations vis-a-vis, the adversary's capabilities.

All I would like to say this; every country has its requirements, aspirations and limitations. It would be wonderful to have all the bells and whistles for your air force's combat fleet. But in the real world, those sort of luxuries are probably limited to countries with overblown defence budgets or who're industrialized enough to call themselves first world countries.

Pakistan, is not one of them. Not only do we not have the luxury of having a big chunk of funds from the govt in the form of a defence budget. But we have, experienced damaging sanctions over decades. Hence a country like Pakistan and it's military doesn't have the luxury to have delusional dreams of building blue water navy, or an Air Force which is capable of fighting two adversaries at once. No, the thinking is quite blunt with Pakistan and that is, aim to establish as close an ability to become indigenous, as possible. To maneuver strategically toward immunity to military sanctions.

It is this sort of approach which bore the JF-17 Thunder.

Whatever it's limitations are, whatever it's inferiority is compared to other aircraft. It is still one combat aircraft which cannot be affected by sanctions of the West. It is still one aircraft which is produced by a country that Pakistan knows is a true ally.

I am sure you of all people on this forum would know better, Miragedriver, how damaging it is to be isolated by sanctions. When Britain convinced France to stop supplying the Exocet Missiles. It was due to the fact that Britain witnessed first hand, it's ship sunk by a country determined to fight back against imperialism and hegemony.

So to is the case with Pakistan, where we are determined to cut-off any ability of any country to sanction us or limit our ability to defend ourselves.

Thank you Contra and Dizasta. The data I was pulling from to analyze the effectiveness of The JF-17 was out dated. My initial reason for the post on the thread was to openly ask questions. This is how you learn. Since I was hearing so much talk regarding the aircraft as being the best thing since sliced bread I began looking into the aircraft. As you correctly pointed out Argentina was/is considering the aircraft as a replacement for the Mirage III types. They have also experienced the effects of sanctions on their military. From the new information provided by Zhaid and other member my questions generated by incorrect data have been address, with the exception of the RD-33 engines. Once locally produced Chinese engines can be placed in the aircraft it will be less likely to be manipulated by a third party.

As you and other member have indicated the aircraft has its limitation. With that said it is also a step up (not only in aircraft, but self-sufficiency) in the replacement of older aircraft (Mirage V and J-7) that are reaching the end of their usefulness as military assets. Additionally having one aircraft type replace two, or three different aircraft also makes economic and logistics sense.

Just as the Israelis began the road to self-sufficiency due to the embargo placed on them by the French, so have the Pakistani’s taken similar steps. It will be interesting to see how that Pakistani defense industry develops in the next twenty years. Just as the Israeli defense industry has grown to be a world leader in aircraft avionics.

Sooner or later the JF-1 will be involved in aerial combat with a comparable opponent and hopefully not a one-sided encounter with an F-15 or Su-30. We will then be able to compare the aircraft and set a benchmark compared to other aircraft type.

That's you "defending" the aircraft?! LOL.
You are agreeing with that statement and basically making fun of people who would be offended by it. Do you think people cannot see through your "objective" statements?

On the contrary I fully recognize that the JF-17 is NOT a J-7/MiG-21 it is a completely different aircraft, and many members would take offence to that. The individual that made the comment, as yourself in your post, are trying to bait members into arguments. That is not acceptable behavior on this forum. As Contra2 correctly pointed out I would like to know more about the aircraft and raised my concerns of the numerical data that was posted on official web sites. Zhaid provided more data and other member provide answers to questions asked.



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec