JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Zahid

Junior Member
I tired to locate the link but couldn't succeeded, may be some one could. It was on Express News Channel.

I would not take some random footage in this regard too seriously, TBH - unless ISPR (Inter-Services Public Relations of Pakistan Army) specifically said so. Footage from war-zone would be conclusive proof, but I doubt if ISPR would go to the trouble of having that made and then releasing it in an off-hand manner.
 

A.Man

Major
News: Moroccan F-X Program

The Moroccan F-X program has been established to enable the Royal Moroccan Air Force to buy a new aircraft to replace the Northrop F-5 Tiger III for the next decade.

Although the formal request for proposals has not been released, several competitors are expected to submit existing aircraft and others are considering all new designs.

What we know is that the chineses, through CATIC, have proposed an industrial cooperation and proposed their Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder.

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... roccan-f-x-program/
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
When the JF-17 fighter was in development, many online communities were jumping with excitement trying to compare it with its possible arch rival India’s modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S, Mirage-2000H and the unbuilt Tejas. There were even claims (of which I read and believed) of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles, and that the Chinese where eventually going to order some due to its superior capabilities, but wanted to fill Pakistan’s orders first. However, this online reality seems far from the actual reality.

There are still several questions regarding this aircraft that still bother me and maybe some of the JF-17 fans out there can shed some light on the questions and we can then separate the wheat from the chaff without getting feather ruffled. I know that you JF-17 fans are vehement of your aircrafts prowess. Therefore let’s all take a deep breath and calmly go over the questions without attacks or national pride rearing its face. Good! Ready? Let’s start, shall we?


KOs0txf.jpg


Number one: The KLJ-7 radar fitted to the JF-17 uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna and bears similarities with the various Russian radars imported in the 1990s. Granted the manufacturer claims that it can identify 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets. The detection range for targets with a radar cross-section of 3 square meters is stated to be ≥75 km (≥35 km in look-down mode). The EL/M-2032 (used by India and many other nations in upgrades) is recognized for it’s greatly enhances the Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Sea capabilities. In the Air-to-Air modes, the radar enables long-range target detection and tracking for weapon delivery or automatic target acquisition in close combat engagements. Assuming an 80 cm antenna diameter the KLJ-7 can detect a radar cross section of 3 m2 Look-up: >75 km. The EL/M-2032 can fare around 120km +/-. It appears (at least on paper) that any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary’s front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely.

Number two: The aircraft does not have enough wing area to provide a low wing loading, thereby reducing the maneuverability of the aircraft. It has a Maximum G loading of only +8 g / -3 g as claimed by PAC, same G limit as the J-7, and the J-7 has a much lower wing loading (smaller aircraft) which makes it more maneuverable.

Number three: Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When its rival, the Indian Air Force Tejas (of which is basically a short legged and smaller Mirage 2000), was overtly criticized having a low Thrust to Weight ratio, we should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less. The thrust to weight ratio is claimed to be 0.95 (based on thrust, which we will get to later). Whereas the Tejas is at 1.04 with the F414 engine. However the Tejas is short legged and will need to look for a landing field if it utilizes its afterburner.

Number four: the proudly claimed RD-93’s “Combat thrust with afterburner” is stated as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93’s thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov’s RD-33 series 3, whose other name is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes, has a provision for emergency thrust, which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf (19,140lbf) in their officially released document. They further state that as “Take-off emergency mode”. So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine’s lifespan. This is a far cry from the “Combat thrust” claim. In any case, this brings the thrust to weight ratio number into question as well as the “on paper” close combat capabilities of JF-17.

Number five: the power plant that is still being utilized is the RD-93 which is neither of Chinese or Pakistani origin. So basically if you purchase the aircraft (in its current production version without the Chinese engine) you need to be in good relations with China and Russia.

Number six: The final disadvantage is JF-17’s speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However, the JF-17’s max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 has higher air resistance. When compared, their J-7s (A better reverse engineered Mig-21) that has a higher speed of Mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine (granted it is a smaller aircraft). But the main question then becomes the majority of the fighters the JF-17 is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder. Not good if it’s come back from a long range mission and being chased or if attacking an enemy and are trying to provide your missiles with a kinetic advantage.

I can understand that there is a great deal to be said for being self-sufficient in domestic defense, especially if you have had to face embargos on parts and aircraft. It can traumatizing on the military’s psyche. However, in the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights to produce domestic equipment.


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
So, the JF-17 is just a modernized Mig-21?


I wouldn’t say that on this thread friend. There are several members (on this thread) that will crucify you over that statement. Even if the facts clearly show that the JF-17/FC-1 had its roots in the Super 7 project. However, it is not the same aircraft nor does it have any parts in common.

PS: don't bait the members........



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

Zahid

Junior Member
Mr. Miragedriver, unless you approach the subject with an open mind, there is no use discussing the matter of JF-17 capabilities.

I've tried in the past and I gave up in despair because you insisted on using outdated figures from PAC website. Subsequent developments and actual figures from company brochures, presentations, conferences have been summarily rejected and thus ignored by you.

It is best to agree to disagree and go on. We should wait until JF-17 Block II, currently being manufactured, is presented and inducted. I hope someone at PAC would finally wake up and update the ridiculously inaccurate figures. Then we can discuss the issue.

The bulk of information exchange regarding JF-17 with unveiling and discussion of newer updates does not happen at SDF any longer. There are J-20, J-31, J-10, and other projects that take up more attention for the past few years and JF-17/FC-1 thread is usually updated by a few people like me who do it out of a sense of loyalty to SDF.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Well, let's try to be impartial and make honest analysis :

1. KLJ-7 is not a state of the art radar, but is not that bad either . Many airforces still use mechanically-steered radars, including USAF . KLJ-7 was best thing available to PAF at that time, potential for upgrade exists .

2. JF-17 is cropped delta-wing , somewhat similar to F-16 , with relatively high-wing loading but good sustained turn rate . There is no way that J-7 (double-delta) could keep up with it in prolonged turning combat .

3. Engine is what it is . 8300 kgf = 81.4KN at full afterburning mode, and time between service 700h
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Again, there is a room for improvement .

4. Max speed is somewhat limiting, but I doubt JF-17 would have to face supersonic bombers at high altitude . In case of war, India would send multi-role fighters loaded with munitions at subsonic speeds, so JF-17 could catch up with them .


Overall, JF-17 is not 4.5 gen fighter as some like to portray it, but it could be effective 4th gen plane for countries with tight budget .
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Well, let's try to be impartial and make honest analysis :

1. KLJ-7 is not a state of the art radar, but is not that bad either . Many airforces still use mechanically-steered radars, including USAF . KLJ-7 was best thing available to PAF at that time, potential for upgrade exists .

2. JF-17 is cropped delta-wing , somewhat similar to F-16 , with relatively high-wing loading but good sustained turn rate . There is no way that J-7 (double-delta) could keep up with it in prolonged turning combat .

3. Engine is what it is . 8300 kgf = 81.4KN at full afterburning mode, and time between service 700h
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Again, there is a room for improvement .

4. Max speed is somewhat limiting, but I doubt JF-17 would have to face supersonic bombers at high altitude . In case of war, India would send multi-role fighters loaded with munitions at subsonic speeds, so JF-17 could catch up with them .


Overall, JF-17 is not 4.5 gen fighter as some like to portray it, but it could be effective 4th gen plane for countries with tight budget .

Thank you Thunderchief for answering my questions. So it appears that the erroneous date provided by PAC (apparently not updated) that the RD-93 produces 8700kgf (19,140lbf) is incorrect. It is 18,300lbf as stated by Klimov. That would also change the thrust to weight ratio number down.


Mr. Miragedriver, unless you approach the subject with an open mind, there is no use discussing the matter of JF-17 capabilities.



Zahid, this is the explanation I was looking for. I was approaching this with an open mind and even defended your aircraft when someone compared it to a “modified” Mig-21.

By rolling your eye and saying there is “no Use disusing the matter…” you are not articulating your point and perpetuating many peoples belief that the aircrafts supporters cannot mount an argument in defense with getting nationalistic.

I knew that some people’s feather would be ruffled by these questions, and even stated that in my question. But I wanted to know the answers, that is why this forum exists; Open friendly exchange of ideas.


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 
When the JF-17 fighter was in development, many online communities were jumping with excitement trying to compare it with its possible arch rival India’s modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S, Mirage-2000H and the unbuilt Tejas. There were even claims (of which I read and believed) of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles, and that the Chinese where eventually going to order some due to its superior capabilities, but wanted to fill Pakistan’s orders first. However, this online reality seems far from the actual reality.

There are still several questions regarding this aircraft that still bother me and maybe some of the JF-17 fans out there can shed some light on the questions and we can then separate the wheat from the chaff without getting feather ruffled. I know that you JF-17 fans are vehement of your aircrafts prowess. Therefore let’s all take a deep breath and calmly go over the questions without attacks or national pride rearing its face. Good! Ready? Let’s start, shall we?


KOs0txf.jpg


Number one: The KLJ-7 radar fitted to the JF-17 uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna and bears similarities with the various Russian radars imported in the 1990s. Granted the manufacturer claims that it can identify 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets. The detection range for targets with a radar cross-section of 3 square meters is stated to be ≥75 km (≥35 km in look-down mode). The EL/M-2032 (used by India and many other nations in upgrades) is recognized for it’s greatly enhances the Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Sea capabilities. In the Air-to-Air modes, the radar enables long-range target detection and tracking for weapon delivery or automatic target acquisition in close combat engagements. Assuming an 80 cm antenna diameter the KLJ-7 can detect a radar cross section of 3 m2 Look-up: >75 km. The EL/M-2032 can fare around 120km +/-. It appears (at least on paper) that any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary’s front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely.

Number two: The aircraft does not have enough wing area to provide a low wing loading, thereby reducing the maneuverability of the aircraft. It has a Maximum G loading of only +8 g / -3 g as claimed by PAC, same G limit as the J-7, and the J-7 has a much lower wing loading (smaller aircraft) which makes it more maneuverable.

Number three: Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When its rival, the Indian Air Force Tejas (of which is basically a short legged and smaller Mirage 2000), was overtly criticized having a low Thrust to Weight ratio, we should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less. The thrust to weight ratio is claimed to be 0.95 (based on thrust, which we will get to later). Whereas the Tejas is at 1.04 with the F414 engine. However the Tejas is short legged and will need to look for a landing field if it utilizes its afterburner.

Number four: the proudly claimed RD-93’s “Combat thrust with afterburner” is stated as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93’s thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov’s RD-33 series 3, whose other name is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes, has a provision for emergency thrust, which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf (19,140lbf) in their officially released document. They further state that as “Take-off emergency mode”. So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine’s lifespan. This is a far cry from the “Combat thrust” claim. In any case, this brings the thrust to weight ratio number into question as well as the “on paper” close combat capabilities of JF-17.

Number five: the power plant that is still being utilized is the RD-93 which is neither of Chinese or Pakistani origin. So basically if you purchase the aircraft (in its current production version without the Chinese engine) you need to be in good relations with China and Russia.

Number six: The final disadvantage is JF-17’s speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However, the JF-17’s max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 has higher air resistance. When compared, their J-7s (A better reverse engineered Mig-21) that has a higher speed of Mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine (granted it is a smaller aircraft). But the main question then becomes the majority of the fighters the JF-17 is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder. Not good if it’s come back from a long range mission and being chased or if attacking an enemy and are trying to provide your missiles with a kinetic advantage.

I can understand that there is a great deal to be said for being self-sufficient in domestic defense, especially if you have had to face embargos on parts and aircraft. It can traumatizing on the military’s psyche. However, in the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights to produce domestic equipment.


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

This is an interesting reality check. I have never thought that the JF-17 was comparable to the F-16, however given that the JF-17 is meant to replace the F-7 in the PAF, I think in the big picture what really matters is whether it is a significant improvement over the F-7 and whether it is a better value. The answer is clearly yes for both questions. In a time of volatile international relations extending from the financial to the military, domestic production of weapons is a valuable asset as long as the product is competitive even if it is not the best available.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Thank you Thunderchief for answering my questions. So it appears that the erroneous date provided by PAC (apparently not updated) that the RD-93 produces 8700kgf (19,140lbf) is incorrect. It is 18,300lbf as stated by Klimov. That would also change the thrust to weight ratio number down.

That is official information from UEC , and here is more ambiguous from Klimov :
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. In any case, I doubt they would fail to show new and improved engine if it exists . That doesn't mean they are not working on something, but is probably not yet completed .


This is an interesting reality check. I have never thought that the JF-17 was comparable to the F-16, however given that the JF-17 is meant to replace the F-7 in the PAF, I think in the big picture what really matters is whether it is a significant improvement over the F-7 and whether it is a better value. The answer is clearly yes for both questions. In a time of volatile international relations extending from the financial to the military, domestic production of weapons is a valuable asset as long as the product is competitive even if it is not the best available.


I would agree, JF-17 and F-16 were never in same weight and engine class. It is clear now that PAF plans to import as many F-16s as they could (like they did with Mirage III/V before) and at the same time introduce large number of JF-17 .
 
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