JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
Ok, kiddo, seems that you are too dumb to understand. I'll teach you again: next time when you deduce, use your brain if you have any, not your imagination.:mad::mad::mad:

Why, Lostboy two whole posts. Did you waste an account just to flame? Have you the honesty to state your real user name?
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
PAF Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed said the JF-17 made 13.5k sorties in 10k operation hours (about 45 minutes per sortie) and claims developments are "on track." He made no mention of any combat operations (probably because the plane wasn't involved in combat operations). There are also doubts on the plane's payload and sufficient internal fuel capacity to satisfy potential buyers. Looks like Block 2 or Block 3, if the 2's don't pan out, can't arrive fast enough.

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ISLAMABAD — Contrary to speculation, development of the JF-17 aircraft continues apace with avionics and weapons carriage capability improvements, work ongoing on future variants, and impending establishment of the third squadron.

Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program, Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed, told Defense News the program was “as per schedule and there are no delays,” saying the current fleet had logged 10,000 hours and flown over 13,500 sorties.

He also revealed the third squadron would be raised after Exercise High Mark 2014 toward the end of the year.

Chief among these improvements are avionics, with Ahmed highlighting they are aimed at improving “situational awareness” and the “performance and lethality of the aircraft,” but still centered on the NRIET KLJ-7 radar which supports the SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

However, building on local capability, “integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway, though Ahmed did not specify.

Short-range air-to-air armament, however, still consists of the PL-5E II, a recent variant of an aged weapon.

Nevertheless, analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force is happy with Chinese missiles.

“Price per unit seems to be a likely factor, besides hooking them to the fire control computer for firing zone solutions, which would also cost a fortune,” he said.

Potential payload shortcomings have also been highlighted by analysts. The JF-17 is often seen with three large drop-tanks indicating low internal fuel capacity and/or high consumption by the Klimov RD-93 engine.

However, Ahmed says the three-tank configuration is for ferry flights or “extended operational training exercises/missions” with routine flights made “in clean or single-tank configuration.”

Therefore, for smaller nations and those conducting tactical missions, “it has the requisite reach to engage targets and can also provide required on-station time in an air defense role,” and aerial refueling “further augmented reach and endurance.”

Tufail is unconvinced, though, and highlights that 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie.

“Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may be a no-no for prospective buyers,” he said.

His most likely solution is not so straightforward, however.

“[Conformal fuel tanks] are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all stores anew.”

Ahmed says other solutions are being considered “based on customer requirements.”

“The dual rack ejector for bombs has already been integrated, flight tested and being flown in PAF. A similar concept of multimissile launcher is under evaluation for missiles,” he said.

Though largely operated by state-owned and Air Force-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Ahmed also highlighted progress on increasing private sector involvement.

“Several Pakistani vendors have been cultivated and brought up to the proficiency levels mandated by aviation programs. The nascent aviation industry in the private sector is taking root and is gradually enhancing its share in this program of national importance,” he said.

Though numerous analysts have commented on the lack of export sales despite well-publicized promotion and apparent interest from potential customers, Ahmed defends this apparent lack of success.

“Defense purchases, especially those of combat aircraft, are expensive undertakings and are therefore preceded by lengthy evaluations and detailed deliberations by the professional decision makers. The response that the aircraft is receiving is highly encouraging and the export orders may not be far off,” he said.

He also stressed that the JF-17 was still a highly attractive option in an age of austerity as it “offers a highly cost effective solution with cutting edge capabilities,” and that “no other contemporary combat aircraft offers the same capabilities in comparable price range.”

Ahmed also highlighted customized “avionics and weapon packages according to the specific requirements of each customer” as well as training, maintenance and logistics packages, which includes “indigenously developed customized solutions, testers and simulators.”

Ahmed did not, however, shed any light on reports the JF-17 could be offered in a wider package including the Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft.

Looking forward, Ahmed confirmed aspects of the Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar option along with other upgrades, and this process was also mindful of potential export customer requirements.

“At present, the Chinese and indigenous systems are performing well in JF-17 aircraft. However, there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17 aircraft which could also be an option for our customer countries,” he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank is unsure this will occur, but believes a “domestically produced engine may in the end tilt the balance towards a Chinese purchase.”

“They certainly have lots of units to replace,” he says.

Nevertheless, Shabbir said everything laid out by Ahmed “shows a well thought out road map for future variants and the capability they would provide.”
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Ok, kiddo, seems that you are too dumb to understand. I'll teach you again: next time when you deduce, use your brain if you have any, not your imagination.:mad::mad::mad:

WARNING !! :mad:

Dear lostboy ... first of all wellcome on board but let me give You this advice !

Please calm down with Your altitude. I see that right with Your second post You show an arrogance and kind of personell attacks that to not correspond to both the kind of behaviour as well of way of discussion here at the SDF.

As such please read the forum rules ... no more personel attacks as well as these repeated accusations. Otherwise bear the consequences.


by the way the same goes for Blackstone too. :(

Deino
 

Zahid

Junior Member
PAF Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed said the JF-17 made 13.5k sorties in 10k operation hours (about 45 minutes per sortie) and claims developments are "on track." He made no mention of any combat operations (probably because the plane wasn't involved in combat operations). There are also doubts on the plane's payload and sufficient internal fuel capacity to satisfy potential buyers. Looks like Block 2 or Block 3, if the 2's don't pan out, can't arrive fast enough.

This article has been debated at length on other forums. Sadly SDF is no longer on the fore-front of FC-1 / JF-17 news. Pakistani members sometimes provide links to English articles and even Chinese material. Munir used to provide and discuss material here, but he had an issue with moderation and asked to be banned. That now leaves only Asif Iqbal to correct any misconceptions about JF-17.

Reading last two pages, I wish to make the following observations:

1. PAF will not let it be known whether JF-17 has been used in current war just yet. Integration of LGB munitions is concluding and it is possible that JF-17 could be used. But since the JF-17 bases are sensitive installations, PAF might not want to draw attention to them by proclaiming use of JF-17. We have seen what destruction a determined band of terrorists can accomplish. Both Peshawar and Kamra are not too far from tribal areas.

2. Initial batch of JF-17 was inducted only in 2007. Production of Block I in PAC started only later. JF-17 is still a very new design and expecting it to assume full multirole duties is totally premature. The article quoted above states that: " “integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway ". Per information shared on PDF's JF-17 discussion thread, this refers to LGB and Runway penetration bombs. Asif Iqbal has also shared more information in his post above.

3. The simple division of 10,000 hours by 13,500 sorties to calculate 45 minute sortie time and then pointing it out as a limitation is a misrepresentation based on gross simplification. Relevant information is buried in FC-1 / JF-17 threads on SDF, but I would like to share one picture from a presentation made by AVIC in Dubai (I think).FC_1_Ranges.jpg

One can see that the aircraft, despite being true to its light weight design does not suffer from a shortage of range like various Mig-21 derivatives or even yet-to-be-inducted Indian LCA.

4. While people like to talk about thrust, range, weight capacity, certified munitions, etc... one very important factor is often ignored. JF-17 is built and is being upgraded for a net-centric warfare. It has the architecture and communication equipment necessary for the purpose. Another factor less discussed is its very low cost of operation - often quoted as less than half of an F-16 on a per hour basis. The computerized diagnostics, engine check-ups, and quick access panel architecture means that the FC-1 / JF-17 can be turned around very quickly and be able to generate a very high sortie rate.

5. Informed posters (fanboys like myself) have been eagerly awaiting JF-17 Block III, which is going to be the real deal. But even block II, under-construction at PAC right now and to be unveiled in less than two months is going to be a very potent and capable fighter with all of the above advantages, plus having IFR, upgraded KLJ-7 swash-plate radar, upgraded ECM, and even DRFM. All of the current Block I birds are going to be upgraded to Block II level.

6. It has been observed that JF-17 in service with PAF is well-liked and can hold its own against F-16s in dog fights. With recently integrated SD-10A missiles coupled with KLJ-7 radar (upgraded range quoted as 130 km for 5 sq. M object), JF-17 has helped address long-standing short-comings of PAF in comparison with IAF.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Reading last two pages, I wish to make the following observations:

1. PAF will not let it be known whether JF-17 has been used in current war just yet. Integration of LGB munitions is concluding and it is possible that JF-17 could be used. But since the JF-17 bases are sensitive installations, PAF might not want to draw attention to them by proclaiming use of JF-17. We have seen what destruction a determined band of terrorists can accomplish. Both Peshawar and Kamra are not too far from tribal areas.

Thanks Zahid for the updates. Please keep them up! The only item I'm not sure about is point 1 above. It seems to me militant targets of PAF air raids could see air planes over the target area, including JF-17s, so saying they were successfully used in combat operations give nothing away, but lend credit to the aircraft's capabilities in actual combat.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Burma Times reported the purchase of JF-17s for domestic production, but it's not clear if the planes are Block Is or IIs. The possible agreement that includes domestic production license is an interesting way to get foreign orders, and may be very attractive to countries like Nigeria and Iran (after UN lifts sanctions). Very exciting development for the Thunder.

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Burma Times: 15 June 2014

The Government of Myanmar is planning to acquire technologies from China and Pakistan to build JF-17 multirole combat aircraft at its own aircraft factory to boost its Air Force.

If JF-17 production is carried out in Myanmar it may induce an arms race with neighbouring countries who would in turn acquire sufficient air defence capabilities of their own. The Royal Thai Air Force already operates 12 Saab JAS 39C/D Gripen’s whilst the Bangladesh Air Force is planning to acquire combat aircraft from China and Russia.

At present the Myanmar Air Force is composed of 23,000 personnel. It is primarily responsible for the air defence of Myanmar and counter insurgency operations in support of the ground forces.

There are 10 operational air bases in Myanmar where its inventory of up to 32 MiG-29B and MiG-29SE’s are stationed along with 25 older F-7M, 21 Nanchang A-5C and a mix of 16 Chinese and Serbian jet trainers used for ground attack roles besides providing pilot training. The air force is also equipped with 9 Mi-35 attack helicopters over 90 transport and utility helicopters. In recent times it acquired Chinese 11 Sky 02A UAV’s to perform basic surveillance missions. Another 24 has been built in-country as Yellow Cat A2. The fixed wing transportation fleet consists of 4 Shaanxi Y-8, 2 Fokker F-27, 2 ATR-72, 2 Harbin Y-12 and 5 Pilatus PC-6. Maritime surveillance is conducted by 5 unarmed Britten-Norman Islander aircraft transferred by India.

The force is plagued by serviceability issues due to lack of spare parts and trained manpower however introduction of JF-17 would mean that Myanmar Air Force will be investing in such areas to mitigate its short comings.

Author Tony David from Jane’s notes that “In both new fixed-wing and rotary-wing capabilities, regional analysts note that a lack of pilot experience and weaknesses in maintenance and ground-to-air links still limit the operational effectiveness of the [Myanmar Air Force],”

The JF-17 is a light weight single engine multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by China and Pakistan. It can be armed with a variety of bombs and missiles including PL-5EII, PL-9C and PL-12 AAMs, C-802A anti-ship missiles, general purpose bombs, laser guided munitions and countermeasures on its 7 hard points (four underwing, 2 wingtip, 1 under fuselage). The aircraft’s standard set of armaments are supplemented by a 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin barrel cannon or 30 mm version of the same.

The avionics suite includes DEEC electronic warfare suite, NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire control radar, night vision goggles compatible with glass cockpit, helmet mounted sights (HMS) and externally mounted pods such as KG-300G self-protection radar jamming pod and WMD-7 day/night targeting pod.

A Russian RD-93 powers the JF-17 to a maximum speed of Mach 1.6. The combat radius of the aircraft is 1,352 km, ferry range being 3,482 km and service ceiling 16,920 m. The thrust to weight ratio on the aircraft is 0.95. Its maximum takeoff weight is 12,383 kg.
The standard export price for the JF-17 Block I is $20 million and Block 2 being $25 million.
Pakistan Air Force is the lone operator of the JF-17 with 54 aircraft operational including 6 prototypes.

The JF-17 was offered to the Bangladesh Air Force on numerous occasions but it was declined in favour of more sophisticated multi-role combat aircraft from China and Russia.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Burma Times reported the purchase of JF-17s for domestic production, but it's not clear if the planes are Block Is or IIs. The possible agreement that includes domestic production license is an interesting way to get foreign orders, and may be very attractive to countries like Nigeria and Iran (after UN lifts sanctions). Very exciting development for the Thunder.

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Probably Block I's for now and Block II for later.
 

Zahid

Junior Member
Probably Block I's for now and Block II for later.

I am not sure about the authenticity of this news. It has been debated and inconsistencies have been pointed out. The sources have also been questioned. Its best to wait for something concrete to happen.

As far as the possible Block for this alleged plan is concerned, I do not think that it would be block I. The major physical difference between Block I and Block II is the IFR probe. Seeing that the plane has a strong suite of AShM arsenal (C-802 & CM400AKG) and that Burma / Myanmar has a large sea coast and maritime area of interest, it would be strange if Burmese opt for Block I. For an effective anti-ship role IFR is a must, even if Burma may have delayed acquisition plans for refuelers. Of course if Burma never plans to have refuelers then it makes no sense to buy a plane with IFR capability. They can still utilize FC-1 / JF-17 in an anti-ship role but its range would be inadequate.
 

Zahid

Junior Member
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Air-Launched Weapons
First Block 2 JF-17s under construction in Pakistan

Alan Warnes, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
26 June 2014

Production of the first two of 50 Block 2 JF-17s on order by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is now well under way at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, with the first expected to fly by the end of the year.
Block II underconstruction.jpg
Production of the first two of 50 Block 2 JF-17s on order by the Pakistan Air Force is now well under way at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. (Alan Warnes)
Production of the first two of 50 Block 2 JF-17s on order by the Pakistan Air Force is now well under way at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. (Alan Warnes)
The Block 2 JF-17 has several capability increases over the Block 1s, but the main boost to the PAF as well as to export potential is the installation of an air-to-air refuelling system. One aircraft has been fitted with a refuelling probe, which protrudes from the right side of the fuselage just behind the cockpit, sitting forward of the pilot's position.

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The above brought to my attention by "TheOccupiedKashmir" on PDF JF-17 thread.

Good to see it taking shape, if it indeed is the photo of first block II under construction.

There is too much one can NOT see in this pic. No rudder (its on the floor in the back ground, I think), no IFR probe (probably too early to install as of yet in the assembly process).

There seem to be no significant physical changes that one may be able to discern, as expected.

But I was expecting it to be done sometime in August. End of year is too far off. From the time Block II start rolling out, Block III would be 2.5 - 3 years away. And we know that Block III would be the real deal.

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Another very interesting tid-bit brought to my attention by "Windjammer" is the following:

"I posted this in the other IAF V PAF thread, suffice to repeat it here as well.
I discussed in detail with a PAF Block-52 pioneer on the F-16 Vis MKI scenario. According to the PAF officer, a Group Captain, the MKI is a superb aircraft but it has it's advantages and disadvantages.... the main advantage being the fuel capacity hence it can loiter for longer periods. Those who argue that it can carry a dozen or so missiles, what good they be if it gets hit by even a single missile, one of it's main disadvantage is it's huge RCS, the officer disclosed that during an exercise with somewhat similar kind of aircraft belonging to a friendly air force, even the JF-17 detected it before it picked up the smaller aircraft, by that time the JFT had launched it's weapon and broken off. !!!!"

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It is a no-brainer that the friendly airforce is PLAAF, and the 'somewhat similar kind of aircraft' would be an SU-30 MKK
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I discussed in detail with a PAF Block-52 pioneer on the F-16 Vis MKI scenario. According to the PAF officer, a Group Captain, the MKI is a superb aircraft but it has it's advantages and disadvantages.... the main advantage being the fuel capacity hence it can loiter for longer periods. Those who argue that it can carry a dozen or so missiles, what good they be if it gets hit by even a single missile, one of it's main disadvantage is it's huge RCS, the officer disclosed that during an exercise with somewhat similar kind of aircraft belonging to a friendly air force, even the JF-17 detected it before it picked up the smaller aircraft, by that time the JFT had launched it's weapon and broken off. !!!!"

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It is a no-brainer that the friendly airforce is PLAAF, and the 'somewhat similar kind of aircraft' would be an SU-30 MKK
Or maybe it's because PLAAF pilots aren't up to PAF standards.
 
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