JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[broadsword]

Why? Block 1 Rafale, Typhoon, in fact, any modern fighter one care to think of, didn't have full multirole capability from the first production aircraft.

I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of this. Marketing wise, you don't buy the planes already made and flying right now, you buy the version that will be built years down the road when the contracts have been finalised and planes built, in which case it's a very different version you are getting. It's all basic stuff, so what's with all the all the mock drama?

I think they are a little slow with the integration.

 

[Munir]

I think the biggest problem the PLAAF has with the JF17 is not its Russian engine, the PLAAF flies plenty of fighters with Russian engines, but rather its range and role.

China is a huge country, increasingly she is looking to push any potential future battlefield further and further from her own boarders, and that requires range the JF17 cannot achieve.

The JF17 also has the misfortune of having a similar role as the J10, which is a far superior aircraft by all accounts.

The PLAAF isn't going to replace all its J7s with J10, J11s and J20s, but those are not the only options. The PLAAF is pretty much committed to buying several hundred L15s, and those are more than capable enough to replace J7s in air policing duties in low intensity theatres.

As for J20 sales to Pakistan, well that simply will never happen. No ifs, no buts. The only reason th J31 is even an outside possibility for Pakistan is because the PLAAF has the J20.

The most that the PAF can hope for is the chance to fly some DACT exercises against J20s, maybe even get a back seat ride if they every develop a two seat variant. But the J20 is simply not for sale, for any price.

The engine issue with JF17 is indeed the main point. We agree on that. But China will not need long range fighterjets all over China. You have a certain mix for certain objectives. Surely J10B is better then JF17b2. But there is a lot of TOT between those projects. Would you still pay more then double price for something that is almost the same?

Whether Paf will get or not get J20. You all seem to be convinced. I think you do not have the total picture nor the insight of the politics at the moment. There is something that I cannot share. Just keep it secret cause I am happy it is not open info. But I would not be overwhelming negative about J20 flying in Pakistani airspace. The input of Pakistani in Chinese developments is known to some. It is not that they design or produce but they certainly have some valuable knowledge. The fact that PAF/Pak gets suddenly huge leap forward with certain weapons is because they are able to do that or have a friend that is extremely reliable.

 

[asif iqbal]

I think they are a little slow with the integration.

You do release that there has been over 100 x F35 produced so far and only last Oct did it do it's first ever live weapons release of the AIM 120 AMRAAM

PAC has done the test and evaluation of the weapons on test aircraft so when Block II goes operational they will have done all the hard work and it will be ready to go as soon as it comes off the production line like they did with test unit 09-109 and the IRF probe

weapons integration for the JF-17 could not have gone any better or faster

 

[thunderchief]

You do release that there has been over 100 x F35 produced so far and only last Oct did it do it's first ever live weapons release of the AIM 120 AMRAAM

You do realize that F-35 is (or at least should be) new and revolutionary fighter for next 50 years, while JF-17 tries to capture low-end market with proven 4th gen technology and airframe design from 80's (or even before that) ? I'm afraid there is no much time left for JF-17, in next 10 years you could expect huge sale-off of established 4th gen fighters like F-16 and Mig-29 on international market. Many poor countries would rather go with used but refurbished well known brand names, then to try something new and unproven . If Pakistan doesn't land some contract for JF-17 in next 2 years that would be it, after that don't expect much .

 

[foxmulder]

You do realize that F-35 is (or at least should be) new and revolutionary fighter for next 50 years, while JF-17 tries to capture low-end market with proven 4th gen technology and airframe design from 80's (or even before that) ? I'm afraid there is no much time left for JF-17, in next 10 years you could expect huge sale-off of established 4th gen fighters like F-16 and Mig-29 on international market. Many poor countries would rather go with used but refurbished well known brand names, then to try something new and unproven . If Pakistan doesn't land some contract for JF-17 in next 2 years that would be it, after that don't expect much .

Are you talking about house appliances or something?

 

[Zahid]

You do realize that F-35 is (or at least should be) new and revolutionary fighter for next 50 years, while JF-17 tries to capture low-end market with proven 4th gen technology and airframe design from 80's (or even before that) ? I'm afraid there is no much time left for JF-17, in next 10 years you could expect huge sale-off of established 4th gen fighters like F-16 and Mig-29 on international market. Many poor countries would rather go with used but refurbished well known brand names, then to try something new and unproven . If Pakistan doesn't land some contract for JF-17 in next 2 years that would be it, after that don't expect much .

1. Pakistanis are not terribly worried about JF-17. It is our need and we do not regret the expense. Export is bonus and a bit of ego boost.

2. Pakistan is already indulging in the gains from the purported sell-off. We just bought a squadron of RJAF F-16s. And yet we are committed to JF-17 despite our love for F-16. Why? And how come other nations would need to think a little before opting for used F-16 and Mig-29.

First, JF-17 is not sanction-prone. Second, JF-17 can not (and need not) fill all the roles that F-16 fills. It costs less to own and operate and fills the numbers gap. Third, the nations that do sell off their 4th generation jets would likely do so after squeezing every bit of useful life from them unless they are looking at a serious downgrade in capacity. After all likes of F-35 are too expensive and necessarily slow to induct. Moreover there is a need for numbers that F-35 types can not be used to fill. Fourth, the cost of ownership and operation makes JF-17 an attractive proposition. If a nation must develop infrastructure and manpower for owning and flying retired F-16 and Mig-29, they would be better off with JF-17 Block III. PAF would provide instructors, consultants, even technicians at a fraction of the cost for other platforms.

All in all whoever opts for JF-17 would spend less per frame (ownership, infrastructure, operation) and be guaranteed a capable and tough defender that could be inducted in numbers.

3. The numbers that you are quoting are rather arbitrary. JF-17 Block II would be inducted in 3-4 months and Block III would likely be inducted in 3 years' time. So, again, no worries.

 

[Munir]

Just something I wanted to say... People keep telling that why JF17? Why not some cheap (if upgraded not so cheap) F16's or even Kfirs. Well, we often said that a new plane is not the same as 2-5 decades old upgraded plane. Here is something that shows that it is not that stupid what I said.

Colombian Air Force suspends Kfir operations

Inigo Guevara, Mexico City - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
05 March 2014

The Colombian Air Force (FAC) has grounded its remaining fleet of 19 Kfir C10/12 and a single TC12 following the crash of an IAI Kfir TC12 (FAC 3006) on 18 February and an accident with a Kfir C.10 (FAC3003) in September 2013, the FAC announced on 27 February.

The FAC is submitting the entire fleet to inspection process that includes deployment of engine and maintenance specialists from Israel and the United States.

ANALYSIS
IHS Jane's expects the FAC to soon be interested in procuring a new multirole fighter with an initial order of 12 aircraft likely to be placed by 2017.

 

[Munir]

1. Pakistanis are not terribly worried about JF-17. It is our need and we do not regret the expense. Export is bonus and a bit of ego boost.

2. Pakistan is already indulging in the gains from the purported sell-off. We just bought a squadron of RJAF F-16s. And yet we are committed to JF-17 despite our love for F-16. Why? And how come other nations would need to think a little before opting for used F-16 and Mig-29.

First, JF-17 is not sanction-prone. Second, JF-17 can not (and need not) fill all the roles that F-16 fills. It costs less to own and operate and fills the numbers gap. Third, the nations that do sell off their 4th generation jets would likely do so after squeezing every bit of useful life from them unless they are looking at a serious downgrade in capacity. After all likes of F-35 are too expensive and necessarily slow to induct. Moreover there is a need for numbers that F-35 types can not be used to fill. Fourth, the cost of ownership and operation makes JF-17 an attractive proposition. If a nation must develop infrastructure and manpower for owning and flying retired F-16 and Mig-29, they would be better off with JF-17 Block III. PAF would provide instructors, consultants, even technicians at a fraction of the cost for other platforms.

All in all whoever opts for JF-17 would spend less per frame (ownership, infrastructure, operation) and be guaranteed a capable and tough defender that could be inducted in numbers.

3. The numbers that you are quoting are rather arbitrary. JF-17 Block II would be inducted in 3-4 months and Block III would likely be inducted in 3 years' time. So, again, no worries.

The point three is interesting. We have two squadrons active in Peshawar and one acts in Kamra as a test squadron (upgrades and weapon testing + training). The reason that we do not jump now directly two a lot more squadron is that every plane needs throughly testing and the best suit it can get. We all know that block 1 is just IR WVR and some old less hight tech weapons. If we builded 5-10 squadrons then we needed huge numbers of upgrades. Now by the time we have block 2 finished we will have also the upgrade from block 1 to block 2. I do not ignore the fact that cash is the issue but that has been the issue for Pakistan for decades and they had far worser experience then at the moment. PAF is inducting 2 types of AWACS and integrating ground station, 2 squadrons of MLU, 1 new block 52, 1 just bought... I do not think that there is any other same size nation that handles that many changes/improvements at the moment. And I do not believe that there is any other nation that received that much help from China to build its own military aviation industry. Just try to understand. Pakistan must defend against India which is a lot bigger and has a lot more cash/planes/manpower... Yet it is able to do it.

 

[Zahid]

I am surprised that nobody has shared this on SDF yet.

Courtesy of cirr from PDF: From China Aviation News.

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Google translate is really horrible on this so I would just quote cirr (as he posted on PDF), since he is Chinese:

"FC-1 04 took to the air after 6 months of technical retrofit and upgrade：



The official report，dated 12.03.2014，didn't mention any specifics regarding the technology upgrade。"


Apparently there are at least a couple of observable changes, both fore of the cockpit and front wheel.

 

[SinoSoldier]

“枭龙”经过半年的技术改装升级后的首次开飞
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阳春三月，乍暖还寒。中航工业成飞试飞站早已机声隆隆，人来车往。面对有效时间少和飞机机型多的特点，试飞站精心组织，科学安排，抓住一切可飞天气，将各机型飞机的试验任务按节点推进。在2月21日召开首次开飞准备会后，“枭龙”飞机04架率先开飞，这是“枭龙”经过半年的技术改装升级后的首次开飞，为进一步检测各项技术指标的改装效果创造了条件。截至3月10日，共计完成歼10批产和“枭龙”飞机试飞55个起落，共计49小时14分，为实现一季度计划目标奠定了基础。

简单的想了一下FC-1可能的升级项目：
首先是换发动机，从新加坡航展中航技高层的说法来看，涡扇-13基本上快搞定了，需要对FC-1进行适应性改进，以便为FC-1换装涡扇-13
还有就是换装AESA，对于2020年以后的战斗机来说，不论是轻型还是重型战斗机，AESA似乎是必要的，相对于现在的KLJ-7，AESA需要更加强大的电力供应，更强的冷却系统，因此也需要对飞机和发动机进行相应在的改进，以适应这种换装。


The modified JF17 was rumored to be testing a new WS13 engine and AESA radar.