JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Lion]

Regarding the export of JF-17. Only China is in the bposition to negotiate with Russian the approve export of RD-93 engine. Russian only on the account of Chinese request. Aprrove the re export of RD-93 engine to Pakistan and other countries despite the possible backlash from Indians.

In other words, any export still needs to go thru China.

 

[thunderchief]

Good points, Mack8. Two questions come to mind, 1) can Pakistan's defense industry manufacture every single part of the JF-17 (except engines)? And 2) why would China let Pakistan be a competitor in the low-end fighter market, using transferred technology?

As far as I know , Pakistan can:

- Produce some parts of the engine (RD-93) and do complete overhaul if supplied with necessary parts

- Produce avionics if supplied with components

- Produce/upgrade software

- Produce airframe

Pakistan cannot :

- Produce whole engine

- Produce avionics from raw materials

- Produce some of the weapons (mostly air-to-air missiles)

 

[nabil_05]

As far as I know , Pakistan can:

- Produce some parts of the engine (RD-93) and do complete overhaul if supplied with necessary parts

- Produce avionics if supplied with components

- Produce/upgrade software

- Produce airframe

Pakistan cannot :

- Produce whole engine

- Produce avionics from raw materials

- Produce some of the weapons (mostly air-to-air missiles)

let me sum it up, there is a deep and genuine friendship between Pakistan and China and this project depicts just that.

on avionics, PAC is producing plenty of them on her own, including new designed ones, we make french, US, Italian and indgenous one from scratch. Engine manufacturing is not foreseen for now but complete overhaul and upgrades can be done, we did so with ATAR and F-100 (during sanctions, brought to 220E standard by ourselves without Yank's assistance). There is plenty going on at PAC, lots of improvisations, even ROSE avionics (ROSE 3) manufacturing and integration is done at PAC without French help.

they dont need to produce everything from scratch, if the need arises + finances are available, it can be done.

 

[Blackstone]

Deleted.

 

[Miragedriver]

The only problem of the JF-17 is the reliance on a third part for the power plant (namely Russia). Once the Chinese can utilize their own engine into the JF-17 (and the Pakistani’s can overhaul it and/or produce it) then the program with have far more freedom to sell the aircraft without export restrictions due to the RD-93. Or a part supply chain problem from Russia.

 

[thunderchief]

The only problem of the JF-17 is the reliance on a third part for the power plant (namely Russia). Once the Chinese can utilize their own engine into the JF-17 (and the Pakistani’s can overhaul it and/or produce it) then the program with have far more freedom to sell the aircraft without export restrictions due to the RD-93. Or a part supply chain problem from Russia.

There is also one "hidden" problem . PAF (naturally) wants to improve this plane , to add new equipment , more weapons , to enhance avionics , increase percentage of composite use etc ... This will of course cause price increase . On the other hand , as time goes by we will have increased offer of upgraded second-hand 3rd and 4th generation fighters , with prices competing with that of JF-17 . In that case , many countries would do like Argentina did and simply chose well established airplane manufacturer over "newcomer" from Pakistan .

 

[Lion]

There is also one "hidden" problem . PAF (naturally) wants to improve this plane , to add new equipment , more weapons , to enhance avionics , increase percentage of composite use etc ... This will of course cause price increase . On the other hand , as time goes by we will have increased offer of upgraded second-hand 3rd and 4th generation fighters , with prices competing with that of JF-17 . In that case , many countries would do like Argentina did and simply chose well established airplane manufacturer over "newcomer" from Pakistan .

Not all used fighter is cheap. Ask the Philippines air force when thru try to buy F-16 and not to mention countries unfriendly to US. Used Mig-29 will be a logistic nightmare.

 

[nabil_05]

There is also one "hidden" problem . PAF (naturally) wants to improve this plane , to add new equipment , more weapons , to enhance avionics , increase percentage of composite use etc ... This will of course cause price increase . On the other hand , as time goes by we will have increased offer of upgraded second-hand 3rd and 4th generation fighters , with prices competing with that of JF-17 . In that case , many countries would do like Argentina did and simply chose well established airplane manufacturer over "newcomer" from Pakistan .

PAF is/ will upgrade the platform for her use, but customers will buy as per their needs and what their pocket allow. No second hand plane in this price/ performance segment can compete with a brand spanking customized fourth generation jf-17 as of today.

Secondly, most of Western/ American planes come with political strings attached, not to mention haevy price and not so smooth supportability. We know this from our firsthand experience with F-16s. Current blk 40/42 aircraft will not cost less than 30 mil for airframe only (inflation), weapons package excluded.

Lastly, jf-17 is not the only plane with a foreign engine, LCA and Gripen, both have a foreign engine that is nothing but an American F-404/ 414 so strings go deeper from Sweden to America.

 

[thunderchief]

Not all used fighter is cheap. Ask the Philippines air force when thru try to buy F-16 and not to mention countries unfriendly to US. Used Mig-29 will be a logistic nightmare.

Used and refurbished F-16s are expensive right now , but price will inevitably drop as USAF starts to retire their planes . As for Mig-29 , many countries use them and it is not such logistical nightmare as some people portray it . In fact , Mig didn't made any new serial version Mig-29s excepts Mig-29Ks for India . All the rest are upgraded planes left from Soviet Union days .

PAF is/ will upgrade the platform for her use, but customers will buy as per their needs and what their pocket allow. No second hand plane in this price/ performance segment can compete with a brand spanking customized fourth generation jf-17 as of today.

Realistically , JF-17 is currently inferior to second-hand F-16 Blk52 , Mig-29 SMT or Mirage 2000-9 . Regarding the price , biggest competition would be Mig-29 SMT ($ 25-30+ million , depending on the package ) . As we saw , even Kfir Block 60 is a potential challenge . Therefore , to have a chance on international market , export JF-17 would need to stay at around $ 20 million . Anything above that and potential buyer would consider buying from proven aircraft manufacturers instead of newcomer .

Therefore , JF-17 needs to have modular design , which would allow "lite" version for export to poor countries and "full" version for PAF and potential richer buyers .

 

[nabil_05]

Used and refurbished F-16s are expensive right now , but price will inevitably drop as USAF starts to retire their planes . As for Mig-29 , many countries use them and it is not such logistical nightmare as some people portray it . In fact , Mig didn't made any new serial version Mig-29s excepts Mig-29Ks for India . All the rest are upgraded planes left from Soviet Union days .



Realistically , JF-17 is currently inferior to second-hand F-16 Blk52 , Mig-29 SMT or Mirage 2000-9 . Regarding the price , biggest competition would be Mig-29 SMT ($ 25-30+ million , depending on the package ) . As we saw , even Kfir Block 60 is a potential challenge . Therefore , to have a chance on international market , export JF-17 would need to stay at around $ 20 million . Anything above that and potential buyer would consider buying from proven aircraft manufacturers instead of newcomer .

Therefore , JF-17 needs to have modular design , which would allow "lite" version for export to poor countries and "full" version for PAF and potential richer buyers .

The whole project is developed on the concept of plug and play i.e. buyers can opt for different systems, radars, weapons, EW as per their needs. In PAF, jf-17 is highly regarded as a capable platform, second to the blk 52+ only. This plane has a modular airframe that can accomodate different engines, as per an old PAF chief interview (F-100, M-53, and RD-33/93 etc)

Look around google and see how much a used SMT (upgrade to baseline A,B and S verions, not a separate program like the M version), blk 52 (NOT the blk 52+ since none are available as used articles yet), 2000-9 costs (Mirage-2000-5/9 were once quoted as 40 mln a pop) than compare it with a 15-20 mln aicrfat that has modular design and systems, from air-air to air-sea.

Yes its just the first blk and still has a long road to cover but the upgrades and weapon carriage we have seen recently, its a bargain deal for its customers.