JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Miragedriver]

Realistically , JF-17 is currently inferior to second-hand F-16 Blk52 , Mig-29 SMT or Mirage 2000-9 . Regarding the price , biggest competition would be Mig-29 SMT ($ 25-30+ million , depending on the package ) . As we saw , even Kfir Block 60 is a potential challenge . Therefore , to have a chance on international market , export JF-17 would need to stay at around $ 20 million . Anything above that and potential buyer would consider buying from proven aircraft manufacturers instead of newcomer .

The price for a Mig-29K (all these price do not include spares, and support equipment, just the flyway cost) is approximately $us27 M and the Mig-29M/M2 is $us25 M not too far off of the JF-17 Block 1 at $us20 M. Granted these Mig’s are refurbished and not new build. However, on a one to one dog fight the Mig will have the advantage. In operational cost the JF-17 will probably have more availability and will be less expensive to maintain
A used Mirage is currently selling for around $us25 M and you are stuck buying expensive French replacement parts.

Therefore , JF-17 needs to have modular design , which would allow "lite" version for export to poor countries and "full" version for PAF and potential richer buyers .

A “lite version” already exists. A single seat JL-9G as used by the PLAN. Cheap point defense interceptor.

 

[Miragedriver]

Lastly, jf-17 is not the only plane with a foreign engine, LCA and Gripen, both have a foreign engine that is nothing but an American F-404/ 414 so strings go deeper from Sweden to America.

True the Gripen, and the LAC use the F-404/414 engine which is supplied by the United State. And this engine is also subject to the whims of foreign policy. The advantage that the American engines have (other than longer operational hours) is that there is a very well established and reliable supply chain for replacement components.

 

[Miragedriver]

The whole project is developed on the concept of plug and play i.e. buyers can opt for different systems, radars, weapons, EW as per their needs. In PAF, jf-17 is highly regarded as a capable platform, second to the blk 52+ only. This plane has a modular airframe that can accomodate different engines, as per an old PAF chief interview (F-100, M-53, and RD-33/93 etc).

The possible utilization of these quoted engines would give the JF-17 a real boost in potential sale. Many nations that currently have an aircraft that utilizes the listed engines could greatly reduce the logistics and the integration of the JF-17 into operation due to engine commonality. It would be interesting to see how this is presented to potential buyers.

 

[thunderchief]

The price for a Mig-29K (all these price do not include spares, and support equipment, just the flyway cost) is approximately $us27 M and the Mig-29M/M2 is $us25 M not too far off of the JF-17 Block 1 at $us20 M. Granted these Mig’s are refurbished and not new build.

Price for Mig-29 SMT (refurbished) is around $25-30 million (around $10 million for used Mig-29B and $15-20 million for upgrade , check prices that Peru or India payed for this ) . Mig-29M/M2 does not exist yet except as a demonstrator , so far nobody purchased this plane (also known as Mig-35) . Mig-29K cost India $ 45-50 million per plane .

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[nabil_05]

A “lite version” already exists. A single seat JL-9G as used by the PLAN. Cheap point defense interceptor.

You are mingling tow different products for their respective markets...

JL-9G is targeting a totaly different market i.e. an affordable, borderline LIFT having no FBW, powerful engine, mediocre avionics and weapons carriage capability. It cannot be compared with a mainstay, agile multirole fighter.

 

[Miragedriver]

Price for Mig-29 SMT (refurbished) is around $25-30 million (around $10 million for used Mig-29B and $15-20 million for upgrade , check prices that Peru or India payed for this ) . Mig-29M/M2 does not exist yet except as a demonstrator , so far nobody purchased this plane (also known as Mig-35) . Mig-29K cost India $ 45-50 million per plane .

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Good site. Thanks. It’s much better than where I go my numbers (

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). With the Mig-29 so cheap why don’t we see more refurbished Mig-29s? Is it due to the poor parts supply and maintenance time for overhaul by Mig?

Sorry for getting off topic

 

[nabil_05]

The possible utilization of these quoted engines would give the JF-17 a real boost in potential sale. Many nations that currently have an aircraft that utilizes the listed engines could greatly reduce the logistics and the integration of the JF-17 into operation due to engine commonality. It would be interesting to see how this is presented to potential buyers.

Both RD and F-404 belong to the same class with similar thrusts...

Go back a few pages and see the pics of jf-17 is being tested with two engines i.e. an RD-93MA variant (9200-9300 kg), and another with WS-13 (86-88 Kg) thrusts respectively.

Technologically, American turbofans have no analogues in the world with high MTBOs and a robust supply chain of spares available but the price a country pays in case of sanctions is much bigger, not to mention, they also eat spare supply stock quickly.

Ask PAC engineers how they managed the F-16s and F-100 engine repairs during 90s, there were times when Falcon flight hours were reduced to 15-20 per year due to scarcity of spares.


NOTE: on Mirage 2000, Indians are paying a hefty $2 billion for 51 upgrade kits only, thats a whoopish $39 mln per plane :O

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[Miragedriver]

You are mingling tow different products for their respective markets...

JL-9G is targeting a totaly different market i.e. an affordable, borderline LIFT having no FBW, powerful engine, mediocre avionics and weapons carriage capability. It cannot be compared with a mainstay, agile multirole fighter.

The JL-9G is cheap. However I would not call it a LIFT. It is a derivation of the J-7 which is a derivation of the Mig-21. The JL-9G wings have been highly modified and has a more powerful engine than the Mig-21.

And yes it has an inferior weapons load and avionics. However the question was asked if there was a cheap version for poor nations and that is as cheap as they come. Besides, with a half decent avionics suit it could still be dangerous. Take a look at how the Mig-21 bison from India did against USA air force F-16 and F-15

 

[nabil_05]

The JL-9G is cheap. However I would not call it a LIFT. It is a derivation of the J-7 which is a derivation of the Mig-21. The JL-9G wings have been highly modified and has a more powerful engine than the Mig-21.

And yes it has an inferior weapons load and avionics. However the question was asked if there was a cheap version for poor nations and that is as cheap as they come. Besides, with a half decent avionics suit it could still be dangerous. Take a look at how the Mig-21 bison from India did against USA air force F-16 and F-15

its a derivative alright but its designed as a trainer/ light ground attak fighter, not a point defense interceptor akin the J-7 series. For very poor nations it could be feasible but generally it is what it is.

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[Miragedriver]

Both RD and F-404 belong to the same class with similar thrusts...

Go back a few pages and see the pics of jf-17 is being tested with two engines i.e. an RD-93MA variant (9200-9300 kg), and another with WS-13 (86-88 Kg) thrusts respectively.

Technologically, American turbofans have no analogues in the world with high MTBOs and a robust supply chain of spares available but the price a country pays in case of sanctions is much bigger, not to mention, they also eat spare supply stock quickly.

Ask PAC engineers how they managed the F-16s and F-100 engine repairs during 90s, there were times when Falcon flight hours were reduced to 15-20 per year due to scarcity of spares.


NOTE: on Mirage 2000, Indians are paying a hefty $2 billion for 51 upgrade kits only, thats a whoopish $39 mln per plane :O

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My main comment in the post was to mention the opening of doors for potential sales if the aircraft could be fitted with a variety of engines in order to ease the operational conversion of the aircraft into that air forces service.

And As I mentioned on several previous posts the cost of maintaining US manufactured engines (cost of parts) is high. This is also true (see previous posts) of French parts (ridiculously high). However, as you mentioned, if parts are not available the aircraft will have reduce hours of service, availability and pilot expertise.

The point could also be made for the Russian supplied engines and the time lag in obtaining spare parts. India suffered this problem with the Mig-29 and the RD-33 engine, which is why they now have their own facility for engine overhauls. However, potential customers of the JF-17 will not have that luxury and will be at the whim of the Russian supple chain unless Pakistan of China can produce the RD-93 or get their new engine operational in installed on the Block 2s