JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[challenge]

FC-1 like F-16 started out as low cost highly manuever fighter aircraft,but overtime it grew into a highly sophisticate fighter,FC-1 like the F-16 going in same path.

 

[Miragedriver]

The Pakistanis order for 42 more aircraft was for a whooping $800million, or roughly $19 million an aircraft (plus supplies, support equipment, etc..). It just seems that for 5 or 8 million more you could purchase a J-10, which is a much more capable aircraft and has more room to grow. On the other extreme you could purchase some J-7E at 6 million or (my personal favorite) the J-7MF, with the underbelly intake and extra hard points for 8 million plus. You could say that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17. They are both derivatives of the same Mig-21.
It’s just very interesting that the Chinese don’t seem to want to purchase the JF-17, They prefer the J-10 and have invested heavily in the J-7MF program. Is it possible that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17 and costs half as much, or is it that the integration of the J-7MF is more efficient due to the commonality of parts with other J-7’s?

 

[MastanKhan]

The Pakistanis order for 42 more aircraft was for a whooping $800million, or roughly $19 million an aircraft (plus supplies, support equipment, etc..). It just seems that for 5 or 8 million more you could purchase a J-10, which is a much more capable aircraft and has more room to grow. On the other extreme you could purchase some J-7E at 6 million or (my personal favorite) the J-7MF, with the underbelly intake and extra hard points for 8 million plus. You could say that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17. They are both derivatives of the same Mig-21.
It’s just very interesting that the Chinese don’t seem to want to purchase the JF-17, They prefer the J-10 and have invested heavily in the J-7MF program. Is it possible that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17 and costs half as much, or is it that the integration of the J-7MF is more efficient due to the commonality of parts with other J-7’s?

HI,

First of all the J 10 that pakistan wants, is coming up in the shape and form of J 10B---secondly---the J 10 was not available to pakistan with the russian engine.

Pakistan is waiting for the chinese engine to be certified for flight---ws 10 I beleive. Pakistan has ordered 30 plus J 10 B aircraft to be delievered by 2015.


Pakistan has about 250 aircraft to replace---the A 5's, the mirage 3's and 5's and the F 7's---.

Also pakistan has ordered another 18 or so F 16 BLK 52's from the u s---as for the J 10B's---the order could possibly be as large as 70 plus---after the first 32 are delivered

 

[taimikhan]

The Pakistanis order for 42 more aircraft was for a whooping $800million, or roughly $19 million an aircraft (plus supplies, support equipment, etc..). It just seems that for 5 or 8 million more you could purchase a J-10, which is a much more capable aircraft and has more room to grow. On the other extreme you could purchase some J-7E at 6 million or (my personal favorite) the J-7MF, with the underbelly intake and extra hard points for 8 million plus. You could say that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17. They are both derivatives of the same Mig-21.
It’s just very interesting that the Chinese don’t seem to want to purchase the JF-17, They prefer the J-10 and have invested heavily in the J-7MF program. Is it possible that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17 and costs half as much, or is it that the integration of the J-7MF is more efficient due to the commonality of parts with other J-7’s?

Plzzz take this out of your mind that JF-17 is a derivative of J-7. Mention one single thing of JF-17 that matches J-7 which can suggest it is a derivative of J-7, JF-17 is totally new in design compared to J-7, so much so, even the landing gear positioning and design does not matches with each other. Plzzzz take out this Indian thinking mentality that JF-17 is a derivative of J-7 or mig-21s, totally different planes from inside as well as out side, not a single piece of the JF-17 has anything to do with Mig-21.

PAF has invested 500Mln$$s from its side in this program, the amount may even be more as this is a joint 50-50 partnership program between PAF & AVIC.

JF-17 is a light weight multi role aircraft which has yet good amount of upgrades left in it, and this has been specially designed as a work horse for air forces which can not have expensive 4th Gen aircraft, but can afford JF-17 to fulfill their 4th Gen requirements and can induct in numbers.

It is also totally changed and superior in performance compared to the J-7 variants. J-7 no doubt a wonderful plane, but it lacks a few things which JF-17 has.

PAF will procure J-10s, but PAF is going for a Hi-Lo mix for its airforce. Hi category would consist of the F-16s & J-10s, while the Lo mix would be JF-17s which will be procured in numbers as its cost is less, operational ease and plus point it gives all what a 4th Gen can provide, excellent choice for replacing PAFs 2nd & 3rd Gen, decades old A-5s, Mirages & F-7s. All three types of aircraft being replaced by one single type, just imagine how much ease of operations it will provide.

And there is no J-7MF being inducted in the CAF, it was mostly left at model stage being shown at some airshows, the last variant they inducted was the J-7G, and most probably the CAF would not be inducting any more J-7s, rather will be going for J-10s & J-11s and other more advanced variants.

JF-17 is a perfect platform for export to countries who can not afford high tech expensive planes, some circles are even calling it the Mig-21 of the 21st century.

Also, it has not yet been finalized that CAF will not be buying the JF-17, let the Chinese engine get finished, then the situation will be clear that CAF is going for FC-1 or not, as per my friend working at Kamra and in close contact with the Chinese friends working at Kamra, CAF may go for FC-1s once the engine issue is resolved, chances are very strong that CAF will get FC-1s in future to replace its Q-5s and also J-7s too.

And plzzz do not call JF-17 a variant of Mig-21, don't insult the JF-17 by calling it a derivative of Mig-21, show proof or else don't say it. Thanks

 

[siegecrossbow]

The Pakistanis order for 42 more aircraft was for a whooping $800million, or roughly $19 million an aircraft (plus supplies, support equipment, etc..). It just seems that for 5 or 8 million more you could purchase a J-10, which is a much more capable aircraft and has more room to grow. On the other extreme you could purchase some J-7E at 6 million or (my personal favorite) the J-7MF, with the underbelly intake and extra hard points for 8 million plus. You could say that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17. They are both derivatives of the same Mig-21.
It’s just very interesting that the Chinese don’t seem to want to purchase the JF-17, They prefer the J-10 and have invested heavily in the J-7MF program. Is it possible that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17 and costs half as much, or is it that the integration of the J-7MF is more efficient due to the commonality of parts with other J-7’s?

Don't underestimate the upgrading potential for the JF-17. I recall Pakistani pilots who flew the bird saying that the plane was comparable to F-16A/B and has around 80% the capabilities of block C/D F-16s, for only 15 million dollars! You can only imagine how much better the plane would get once Western avionics are installed along with electronically scanned radars. The reason that the basic package for the JF-17 is so cheap is because most third world nations could afford the plane and upgrade it if they wish to increase its potency.

 

[Lion]

The Pakistanis order for 42 more aircraft was for a whooping $800million, or roughly $19 million an aircraft (plus supplies, support equipment, etc..). It just seems that for 5 or 8 million more you could purchase a J-10, which is a much more capable aircraft and has more room to grow. On the other extreme you could purchase some J-7E at 6 million or (my personal favorite) the J-7MF, with the underbelly intake and extra hard points for 8 million plus. You could say that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17. They are both derivatives of the same Mig-21.
It’s just very interesting that the Chinese don’t seem to want to purchase the JF-17, They prefer the J-10 and have invested heavily in the J-7MF program. Is it possible that the J-7MF is comparable to the JF-17 and costs half as much, or is it that the integration of the J-7MF is more efficient due to the commonality of parts with other J-7’s?

When did Chinese committed on this J-7MF program? It was discussed on paper but I think it did not materialise.

JF-17 is definitely more superior than J-7E. First it has a bigger cone which can house a more powerful radar. Second, it utilise a turbofan which saves more aviation fuel. Third, it is capable of BVR engagement. Fourth, it is capable of precision strike using laser guided bomb or JADM and offer more hardpointed which increases ammunition carried.

I think that is also the overall reason, CVIC decided to close J-7E line and concentrated on FC-1 for export.

 

[siegecrossbow]

When did Chinese committed on this J-7MF program? It was discussed on paper but I think it did not materialise.

JF-17 is definitely more superior than J-7E. First it has a bigger cone which can house a more powerful radar. Second, it utilise a turbofan which saves more aviation fuel. Third, it is capable of BVR engagement. Fourth, it is capable of precision strike using laser guided bomb or JADM and offer more hardpointed which increases ammunition carried.

I think that is also the overall reason, CVIC decided to close J-7E line and concentrated on FC-1 for export.

You have to admit that the concept is still pretty cool though! The chin-mounted inlet and streamlined shape of the J-7MF kinda reminds me of the J-10. Too bad they didn't even build a single prototype.

 

[bingo]

The key enhacement in JF-17 is the fly by wire technology, which is a distinctive feature of 4th gen planes.

Earlier versions of JF-17 had fly-by-wire controls only along one axis, but the lastest versions have full fledged fly by wire controls.

However, it should also be noted that the fly by wire for JF-17 is coded in C++ (which reduces cost due to availability of civilian programming talent). Almost all the other fly by wire systems are coded using ADA language which is optimized for defence applications.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The key enhacement in JF-17 is the fly by wire technology, which is a distinctive feature of 4th gen planes.

Earlier versions of JF-17 had fly-by-wire controls only along one axis, but the lastest versions have full fledged fly by wire controls.

However, it should also be noted that the fly by wire for JF-17 is coded in C++ (which reduces cost due to availability of civilian programming talent). Almost all the other fly by wire systems are coded using ADA language which is optimized for defence applications.

Well just one more reason for the 15 million dollar cost per unit of the JF-17. I'm sure that once the WS-13 gets out we'll see another drop in price.

 

[Miragedriver]

My main question was why did China invest money and design effort (I know that no prototype has been built) on the J-7MF given that they have a completely different design with the JF-17? It just seems strange that they have not jumped on the JF-17 bandwagon and instead perused different modifications of an older aircraft. Is it that the PLAFF will not purchase large quantities of JF-17 from a purely technical perspective (given the range requirements related to the size of their nation)? Which is strange given that the Chinese are known for honoring their contracts.

Could the problem be the quality and reliability of the RD-93 engine? It is not possible to create a single engine fighter success story with a powerplant that has political strings attached, a higher than normal rejection rate, low MTBF, and that costs a little more than the AL-31. The WS-13 engine is an ideal replacement for the RD-93 in this regard as it also opens up a future maintenance legacy, since it will also possibly be used in the future Chinese twin-engined fighter.

And finally, could the possible Chinese apprehension (what appears apparent to the outside observer) be because the first large batches of aircrafts are going to the PAF because of its urgent requirements?