Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

delft said:

I think the main purpose of China is not control over these islands or even getting the oil and gas that might be won from under the sea but to win over South Korea and Taiwan from their association with Japan and the US. This is a long time project, the US has a treaty with South Korea that gives them suzerainty over that country until 2015, but that would improve the security of East Asia greatly as well as achieving the reunification of China and Korea in the even longer term.
Talk about establishing civilians on DYT is therefore misguided.

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Just my $.02. I don't believe in the oil and gas mantra. Just because the press repeats it 10,000 times won't make oil and gas deposits appear.

There are proven oil and gas deposits in the South China Sea -- off Malaysia's shores:


How many decades have folks been looking for oil and gas around those islands, with nothing to show?

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

superdog said:

Therefore it won't happen just like that, they won't suddenly send troops there without some excuse and a gradual escalation of events.

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I do not personally think that Japan intends to escalate this conflict to troops on the ground or establishing a base. That does not mean China should give them a reason to by landing its own people there. Most people aren't even aware of the fact that the Japanese government was essentially forced into nationalizing DYT because the right wing mayor of Tokyo was planning on buying DYT. Who knows what this fool would have done with the islands if he had gotten his hands on DYT.

superdog said:

Anyway, back to my reply for the quote. What I wanted to say is, if Japan really want to escalate the conflict, they have plenty of ways to do so without looking bad on the "international" press which is dominated by western-centric ideology and biases.

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As I said before, Japan has far more latitude for escalation than China does, which makes it all the more important that China take steps to not be seen as the aggressor here but rather as the aggrieved party. But just because Japan has alot of latitude does not mean it has free reign here, and I think any long term physical presence on the islands would cross a line that Japan could not easily justify to the world in the absence of a Chinese incursion.

MwRYum said:

But you do know with neither side can afford the repercussion of backing down, escalation is the only path; and you should be familiar with the term "accidental discharge of weapons" too. Like it or not, this "Mexican standoff" status quo can't last forever, some hotheads on either side will eventually make another move to make each side man up and before you know it, Japan and China goes to war.

It's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when".

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IMO conflict is not only NOT inevitable, but in fact highly unlikely. There is no current Mexican standoff like there was with the Phillipines. China is now leisurely patrolling inside the territorial waters of DYT, either following or being followed by the occasional Japanese ship. This is not a standoff situation. this situation is stable enough to go on until the end of eternity as far as I'm concerned. The only way it will escalate is if one side decides to get more aggressive with the tailing, such as getting extremely close (less than a few dozen meters) or even physically bumping hulls, or doing something like spraying opposite crew members with water cannons, etc. The US and the USSR managed to get through the entire Cold War shadowing each other like this without even a single time resorting to armed conflict.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

I have already said more than once that Japan's control of DYT is a historical injustice that needs to be corrected. You would know if you actually bothered to read my posts.

Japan's purpose in controlling DYT is not obvious to you? Seriously? If even this basic concept is not clear to you, you definitely should not even be in this debate in the first place. I am actually flabbergasted by your latest post. It reveals a degree of cluelessness that shocks me TBH. What are you doing in this thread? You clearly don't belong here.

Let me help you get a clue then: Japan wants to control DYT to claim access to the EEZ surrounding it; this is the primary reason above all others. Japan also wants to control DYT because it serves as part of the chain of islands preventing China's easy access to the rest of the Pacific, the others being Japan, the Ryukyu Islands, Taiwan, and the Phillipines. Japan also wants to control DYT because it is a sort of litmus test for Japanese nationalist hardliners to rate their leaders.

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IF the you agreed that DYT belongs to China than what the heck does the Japanese needs to control the surrounding EEZ for? This nonsense that Japanese nationalist hardliners needing this control as a way to see how leaders work is a sad excuse and they know it. Are they really that afraid of China having an easy access to the rest of the Pacific?

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

First you called me a China-hater, and said that I defamed China. When I asked you to prove it, you could not. When I pressed you further, you became INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST and started calling me a Chinese-hater instead, as if that could somehow substitute for being a China-hater. These are not the same thing, but since you were unable to prove that I am a China-hater or that I "defamed" China, you dishonestly moved the goalposts and started calling me a Chinese-hater. I think even someone like you can understand how pathetic and immoral this tactic is. You cannot even prove that I am a "Chinese-hater". Just because you are losing this argument (and losing it badly), doesn't mean I am some kind of Chinese-hater. Just because I disgree with all the internet armchair general fanboys who want to right now go and take DYT for the glory of the motherland (or for whatever other stupid reason), doesn't mean I am some kind of Chinese-hater. If you want to continue falsely accusing me of this, that, or the other nonsense, you shouldn't be surprised if it gets turned around and stuffed right back down your throat.

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Adding intellectual with insults as way for you to express your displeasure of some one else's opinion is your excuse to be spiteful. This isn't about your feelings and proving you are a China hater or not, it's about you trying to "win" an argument for some reason you believe it will some how magically make these "armchair general fanboys" (more insults without proof) agreed to your point of view and change the China foreign policy doctrine to the way you wanted. Sorry pal, that's not going to work.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

Your original reply to me was as if I had written to you; that is how you understood it, and that is how you replied. This much is indisputable. Now you are trying to ludicrously reframe your reply as some kind of free speech thing, that somehow you knew all along that I wasn't talking to you, but you just wanted to jump in. This makes me laugh hard. This also makes you look more ridiculous with each post in which you attempt to squirm out of your mistake. Take a hint: it's not working out for you.

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You simply ignore my last sentences didn't you? Are you that angry that I just jump into the conversation? Keep laughing to yourself and by yourself, apparently you're too rude to understand that this is an open forum as I said before. That is anyone of the members are allowed to join in the discussion if they like, yes even this one, in case you might forget again.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

CM Ships Patrol Diaoyu Islands Territorial Water

[video=youtube;fzvWjaTZrQ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzvWjaTZrQ4&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

advill said:

China & Japan should seriously sit down and talk without antagonisng each other. Look at joint interests where possible, & finally remember your own nationals & that of the people of Asia are looking for peace & prosperity for the region. Once the shooting begins (by any party - accidental or intentional) it would difficult to stop it. Veterans of wars & hostilities know this.

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Herein lies the root of the problem. Japan refuses to acknowledge there is a dispute and will not sit down and talk. The western press tend to ignore this fact. You will also never hear the US administration call for such talks for a peaceful resolution, despite having done so in response to a similar dispute with the Philippines, and are thus effectively supporting Japanese "Nothing to Negotiate" stance on this dispute. Apparently containment of China (Asian Pivot) is more important to them than a peaceful resolution.

In any case, Chinese media needs to be more active in delivering this message.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

Japan moving troops onto DYT unilaterally without a Chinese first move will easily give China enough political cover to escalate the situation to armed conflict if it so desires. It will not matter that Japan will claim it is simply moving troops around inside its borders, it knows that China will interpret this otherwise, and so will the rest of the world, no matter what lip service they pay to Japan (or not). I'm fairly certain Japan would not even consider such a move in the absence of a Chinese incursion; I'm also fairly certain the US would not permit this in the first place. That is why it is important that no Chinese boots land on DYT, unless of course Japan escalates by landing boots first. If that happens, then all bets are off, stupidity has prevailed, and war will be likely.

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I can agree with you there, but what if both sides are conducting military drills (say amphibious landing exercises) on the DYT? That would further escalate the problems. That's why my whole argument is for Japan to stop trying to control the surrounding EZZ of the DYT and just hand it back to China. Japan using this DYT problem as a political pawn of the game won't gain them anything, unless they want better economic trade deals or something else with China.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mysterre said:

I do not personally think that Japan intends to escalate this conflict to troops on the ground or establishing a base. That does not mean China should give them a reason to by landing its own people there. Most people aren't even aware of the fact that the Japanese government was essentially forced into nationalizing DYT because the right wing mayor of Tokyo was planning on buying DYT. Who knows what this fool would have done with the islands if he had gotten his hands on DYT.

.

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It's too late already, both sides had their nationalistic civilians on shore and planted their flags there (even though for awhile). How far will this continue? It's hard to say.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Dolcevita said:

Herein lies the root of the problem. Japan refuses to acknowledge there is a dispute and will not sit down and talk. The western press tend to ignore this fact. You will also never hear the US administration call for such talks for a peaceful resolution, despite having done so in response to a similar dispute with the Philippines, and are thus effectively supporting Japanese "Nothing to Negotiate" stance on this dispute. Apparently containment of China is more important to them than a peaceful resolution.

In any case, Chinese media needs to be more active in delivering this message.

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I agreed, you can forget about western presses ever siding with China or even display China's point of view.