J-XX Fighter Aircraft

otester said:

Judging by China's previous products, a J-XX comparable to the F-22 is unlikely, all Chinese aircraft have been copies of other countries designs, from the J-10 to the J-11B, I'm not saying this is a bad a way of doing things since copying can save a lot of time/money, but a self-developed J-XX is VERY unlikely.

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This show your ignorance about Aerospace development in China Whatever product that you see today, the design was done 20 years ago . When China just coming out from isolation and the general level of Industry and Engineering was low.

Not counting that Defense was given very LOW priority for long time.and How about the continuing embargo imposed on western world against China. Wher e China has No access Not even conference!

So they have to take short cut in order to close the GAP . Even Copying is not as easy as you think you just cannot exactly copy design because the material are different. The component and engine are different . So they still have to do engineering. Anyway everybody is copying everybody else. So why is it so bad ? I mean America doesn't exactly invent jet Engine GE copy it from NENE The same with Russian

Now China has proven that they can independently design a fighter . The infrastructure(Manpower and Industry) is now in place to improve and independently design fighter plane. I have no doubt about it . With stronger industryand larger pool of engineering talent plus the availability of computerized design tool like CATIA, ANSYS, NASTRAN and FLUENT It is now easier to design than 20 years ago

Eventually defense product reflect the maturity and strength of country's industry
And China is closing the Gap on technology in every fields!

So I suggest you learn first before you open your mouth

Hendrik_2000 said:

How about the continuing embargo imposed on western world against China. Wher e China has No access Not even conference!

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Everyone knows why countries get sanctioned, I won't go there because I don't think the mods would be too happy.

Hendrik_2000 said:

So they have to take short cut in order to close the GAP . Even Copying is not as easy as you think you just cannot exactly copy design because the material are different. The component and engine are different . So they still have to do engineering. Anyway everybody is copying everybody else why is it is so bad I mean America doesn't exactly invent jet Engine GE copy it from NENE The same with Russian

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I was just saying that China copies all of its designs in some way, many 'fan-boys' like to think that China does it all on their own and I was just pointing that out. It's good to see that you accept that.

Yes a lot of countries do copy, but they all have at least one thing that they can say they did themselves, I must also add that Iran is guilty of doing what China does as well.

You can jump the gap, but at some stage you are going to have to start R&D&B-ing yourself to keep on top of the latest threats, either that or you can try and make up for the slight disadvantage with numbers.

Look at India, they R&D&B some of their own stuff, maybe it is a little poor and looks damn right ugly, but at least their learning and showing some sort of effort.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Now that China has proven they can independently design a fighter The infrastructure(Manpower and Industry) is now in place to improve and independently design fighter plane. I have no doubt about it With stronger industry and larger pool of engineering talent plus the availabii;ity of computerized design tool like CATIA, ANSYS, NASTRAN and FLUENT It is now easier to design than 20 years ago

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Independently design a fighter? What fighter? Even the CCTV pictures of the supposed J-XX in the wind tunnel look like F-22 rip offs.

Look at India, they R&D&B some of their own stuff, maybe it is a little poor and looks damn right ugly, but at least their learning and showing some sort of effort.

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What R&D ? India cannot even produce decent tank after 25 years of effort and and with the help of the world ARJUN anyone? Not even your own army are willing to induct Arjun and How about Kaveri engine At least WS 10 A is in production. or Your much vaunted LCA that hasn't got off the ground after 25 years of effort compare that to J-10 that is PRODUCTION

In the last 10 years India navy BOUGHT 3 TALWAR CLASS Ships in meantime China produce 6 big Destroyer, 6 Frigate , 6 Submarine etc etc

And has equipped 5 regiments to the total amount of 120 Yeah India is big on BIG MOUTH The INdian army are equipped with mish mash equipment that was BOUGHT

Independently design a fighter? What fighter? Even the CCTV pictures of the supposed J-XX in the wind tunnel look like F-22 rip offs.

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Rip off or not J-10A is inproduction J-11B is inproduction WS-10A is inproduction, Kaveri anyone? Arjun?

Hendrik_2000 said:

What R&D ? India cannot even produce decent tank after 25 years of effort and and with the help of the world ARJUN anyone? Not even your own army are willing to induct Arjun and How about Kaveri engine At least WS 10 A is in production. or Your much vaunted LCA that hasn't got off the ground after 25 years of effort compare that to J-10 that is PRODUCTION

In the last 10 years India navy BOUGHT 3 TALWAR CLASS Ships in meantime China produce 6 big Destroyer, 6 Frigate , 6 Submarine etc etc

And has equipped 5 regiments to the total amount of 120 Yeah India is big on BIG MOUTH The INdian army are equipped with mish mash equipment that was BOUGHT



Rip off or not J-10A is inproduction J-11B is inproduction WS-10A is inproduction, Kaveri anyone? Arjun?

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Well at least they had a go, even if getting foreign help still didn't get any progress going, if they try again with something else next time they will avoid the lessons previously taught to them.

Comparing Chinese production to Indian production is unfair, you produce copies, India tries to produce something of their own, even when getting a foreign company to help them when they experienced problems still doesn't help.

Producing military hardware is hard for countries just entering the industry, look at England, we were there at the start so it's easier for us, since we have experience.

All I was looking for in this discussion is acceptance that all China produces is copies, I got that acceptance, now it is really pointless discussing anymore.

otester said:

Well at least they had a go, even if getting foreign help still didn't get any progress going, if they try again with something else next time they will avoid the lessons previously taught to them.

Comparing Chinese production to Indian production is unfair, you produce copies, India tries to produce something of their own, even when getting a foreign company to help them when they experienced problems still doesn't help.

Producing military hardware is hard for countries just entering the industry, look at England, we were there at the start so it's easier for us, since we have experience.
All I was looking for in this discussion is acceptance that all China produces is copies, I got that acceptance, now it is really pointless discussing anymore.

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India cannot even copy let alone design and There is no such thing as original design Even the mathematical foundation for the Stealth is plagiarized from Russian Mathematician So US is not inventing it ! US just coded it into a program

Hendrik_2000 said:

India cannot even copy let alone design and There is no such thing as original design Even the mathematical foundation for the Stealth is copy from Russian Mathematician So US is not inventing it ! US just coded it into a program

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When I read up on the Arjun I was not aware of any foreign input, up until problems were found, I will go and re-read some other sources and get back to you on that.

US hasn't really invented that much at all, Nazi scientists gave them a huge amount of information/hardware which gave the USA a leading edge.

The Chinese military industry copied and copies technology from other countries. The Chinese military industry also develops its own technologies. You may focus on the former and ignore the latter at your own peril. It is a part of the Chinese military tradition to play down its strengths and hide its capabilities, so you're playing right into their hands. Shrug. Now, can we get back on topic?

If I take a T-80 and turn it into a Type 99 then yes, it is merely a heavily modified version, with your own electronics etc.

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The PLA has never recieved let alone had the oppurtunity to dissect a T-80 nor T-80 related technology. The PLA has never even gotten its hands on a T-72!!

FriedRiceNSpice said:

The PLA has never recieved let alone had the oppurtunity to dissect a T-80 nor T-80 related technology. The PLA has never even gotten its hands on a T-72!!

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China worked on the Al Khalids at one point, possibly still does.

Also... similarities:

-Gun
-Autoloader
-Interior layout fits that of a Russian designed tank.

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You should check out the previous posts about T-99, the ammunition is clearly different, so is the gun. Arjun layout out fits that of a western designed tank, but you keep clamming it is designed from scratch, and yes, Arjun did have plenty of foreign help, ie a foreign engine, same thing for LCA. For JH-7, you could only points out to a foreign engine, and for J-8II, you could only point out to a russian radar, which they have since replaced.

So why are you keep throw these contradicting arguments?

Also, have you check out the development histroy if J-9 and J-12? Especially for J-9, that clearly shows where the J-10s tailless delta-canard configuration comes from.