J-XX Fighter Aircraft

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montyp165

Senior Member
No, China won't follow USAF's F-22/F-35 hi-hi combo because she doesn't have the abundant technological and financial resources which US enjoys. So PLAAF's future backbone will be Chengdu J-XX (elite regiments only) + J-10/J-11 (in large number), kind of a 5th/4th Gen. hi-low mix.

A J12/J13 mix does make sense as an equivalent to the F-22/F-35, particularly as Chinese industry, technology and economy expands and improves reducing complexity of production over time.
 

Londo Molari

Junior Member
The U.S. is running itself bankrupt by pursuing two 5th generation programs. The F-35's latest cost overruns have driven the unit cost up to
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, and now it can no longer dominate the cheap fighter market. It will be forced to compete with Eurofighters and Rafales, which are coming down to this price level, which will make sales much more difficult. If they don`t get many export orders, this project will not be viable.

One of the main reasons they are making the F-35 in addition to F-22 is because the American F-16s and F-18s airframes are very old and need to be replaced. The F-22 only replaces the F-15.

China on the other hand, has no need to finance and develop two 5th generation fighters. With heavy investment in the last decade building up a fleet of flankers and J-10s which all have new airframes, why should they be replaced anytime soon? Instead it would make sense to have something close to the F-22 for air superiority in serious conflicts, and keep the rest of the J-10 and flanker fleets around for strike, patrols, air-defense, etc... You don`t have to match all threats unit-for-unit, thats a waste.
 

adeptitus

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The U.S. is running itself bankrupt by pursuing two 5th generation programs. The F-35's latest cost overruns have driven the unit cost up to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and now it can no longer dominate the cheap fighter market. It will be forced to compete with Eurofighters and Rafales, which are coming down to this price level, which will make sales much more difficult. If they don`t get many export orders, this project will not be viable.

USAF's latest budget estimates can be found here:
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I also recommend this "sticker shock" article:
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If you take changes in USD to Euros exchange rate into consideration, European aircraft isn't going to be that much cheaper. The latest F-35 unit cost estimate is $83 million and that's cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter. It'd be comparable to the Brazilian estimate of $80 million for the PAK-FA.

The current estimated production run of F-35 is 5,500 aircraft. Even if this number is reduced by 50% in face of rising costs, that' still more than everyone else's 4.5 gen & 5th gen fighter production combined.

Let's be realistic here. If the J-XX went into mass production in 2010's, does anyone here expect the production to be more than a few hundred?
 
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tphuang

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USAF's latest budget estimates can be found here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I also recommend this "sticker shock" article:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



If you take changes in USD to Euros exchange rate into consideration, European aircraft isn't going to be that much cheaper. The latest F-35 unit cost estimate is $83 million and that's cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter. It'd be comparable to the Brazilian estimate of $80 million for the PAK-FA.

The current estimated production run of F-35 is 5,500 aircraft. Even if this number is reduced by 50% in face of rising costs, that' still more than everyone else's 4.5 gen & 5th gen fighter production combined.

Let's be realistic here. If the J-XX went into mass production in 2010's, does anyone here expect the production to be more than a few hundred?
I remember reading a while back that F-35A is 80 million, B and C are much more expensive. And mind you, the cost is only going to rise as it does for every other branch of US military. From eveywhere else I read, the figures were 256 nillion for 2000 F-35s. So I'm not sure if these pdf files are updated regularly.

As for what SDF showed regarding the SAC/CAC design, that's just bs. Nobody knows what their designs look like. Internet leaks are exactly that and nothing more.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
One thing I have noticed about fighter aircraft production and aircraft production in general is that the production sophistication for manufacturing aircraft haven't kept pace with the rate of increasing complexity of aircraft, particularly military aircraft, which ups the cost per plane. Aircraft manufacturing needs a generational shift as much as the fighter aircraft have done, otherwise it would be equivalent of using steam technology to manufacture computer chips.
 

PrOeLiTeZ

Junior Member
Registered Member
I remember reading a while back that F-35A is 80 million, B and C are much more expensive. And mind you, the cost is only going to rise as it does for every other branch of US military. From eveywhere else I read, the figures were 256 nillion for 2000 F-35s. So I'm not sure if these pdf files are updated regularly.

As for what SDF showed regarding the SAC/CAC design, that's just bs. Nobody knows what their designs look like. Internet leaks are exactly that and nothing more.
yeah your memory is right the f-35 stovl and carrier variants are mor expensive, several million more to be precise.......their more complicated and maintenance hassel....but you already know that.....J-XX would be to compliment their existing fleet not to replace it....thier frontline fighters are would still be J-11/10
 

LOKÙRA

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Hola! I'm new in foro.1.To pology if my English is not correct, is that I use a translator internet .. 2.I to stay in knowing more about the J-xx, and particularly the aviation china. Is idea has confirmed what the design of J-xx? As far as I interpret in the forum does not replace the J-11 but would support this. No? I do not think of anything that to serve replace because the cost of development is enormous. Thank you
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
平可夫:F22战机!百闻不如一见 中国的四代战斗机计划概论

====

平可夫:F22戰斗機!百聞不如一見



KDR倫敦專電:在范保羅航空展F22隱形戰斗機結束表演數分鐘之后,蘇霍伊飛機公司總經理米哈伊爾.波格項接受了本刊編輯平可夫的全球獨家專訪。波格項表示F22展示的機動性在Su30MKM上已經完全能夠完成,這是俄羅斯航空工業界十多年前的技術。更多的全部專訪內容參看本刊9月號。


平可夫對F22的機動性評價是這是歐美戰斗機中最好的,基本的戰術是利用隱形性,實施先發制人的攻擊,這一點已經是第五代戰斗機的主要特點。在追求隱形性還是高度的機動性方面,美俄第五代戰斗機的設計有所側重。總體上,F22的機動性并非像Su30MKI/MKM、MiG35那樣予以深刻的影響,發動機的矢量推進技術美俄存在設計概念和技術上的差距。更多有關F22的分析,參看本刊9月號。


波格項表示俄第五代戰斗機將在2009年試飛!

以下文章發表于漢和防務評論2005年6月月號,供參考。


中國的四代戰鬥機計劃概論



漢和防務評論編輯部平可夫專稿


637﹐639)第一集團公開的新一代隱形戰鬥機錄像。這應該只是一個概念機,而非真正的中國四代機,但是通過概念設計,可以看出中國的航空工學技術人員的若干設計構想。平可夫珠海航空展大電視屏幕翻拍

638)江澤民視察矢量發動機噴嘴技術(TVC) 平可夫翻拍。


中國航空工業技術第一集團最近已經公開對外宣稱其下一代殲擊機的預研工作進展順利。若干中國的官方媒體報導了這一消息。


來自該集團的權威消息聲稱"四代機"即將進入風洞試驗階段﹐並且已經研製了一段時間。平可夫認為從中國消息來源涉及的"四代機"研製時間推算﹐"進展順利"表明其經費相應充足﹐沒有出現俄羅斯第五代戰鬥機那樣的財政難狀況。同時﹐概念設計基本完成﹐即將或者已經進入風洞試驗階段。而來自西方的情報聲稱"四代機"在90年代後期便已經立項。


平可夫認為﹐由現有掌握的"四代機"研製狀況判斷﹐航空工業的體制改革已經促成中國軍用機研製進入了新的階段。體制管理﹑研製方法有接近美國的趨勢。首先是已經形成了集團內部的競爭機製。在概念設計﹑風洞試驗階段開始採用複數方案的評估做法。例如在沈陽飛機公司內部﹐迄今為止一共拿出了兩種"四代機"隱形化方案。在成都飛機公司內部也同時拿出了雙發J10A隱形化﹑單發J10A隱形化﹑全新輕型隱形戰鬥機方案。甚至與沈陽"重型四代機"的概念研製相同﹐成都的全新輕型隱形四代機也可能出現兩種方案。來自沈陽的消息聲稱兩種隱形四代機都將進行風洞試驗。今後重型四代機的研製是否會步美國YF22和YF23的後塵﹐同時推出兩種型號的試驗機一直到試飛階段投標空軍值得進一步觀察。


與此同時﹐在集團內競爭的同時﹐集團內協作的成份還是會高于美國。即使出現複數的候選機種﹐相同部份的色彩依然很突出。沈陽重型四代機的兩種方案事實上非常接近便是較好的例子。由於高性能發動機的研製單位606所﹑機載設備的研製重鎮607所都在第一集團內部﹐因此集團內部的相應協作﹑不同設計方案的通用部份是很高的。


由最新公開的若干隱形四代機概念設計﹑風洞模型的外型判斷﹐隱形四代機所貫徹的設計意圖依然是機動性﹑隱形性並舉﹐側重機動性。這一點﹐與F22所表現的特徵是基本一致的。西方航空工業界在平可夫公開重型四代機研製新聞以及圖片之後普遍認為沈陽重型四代機簡直就是F22的中國版﹐但是平可夫對重型四代機進行分析之後所得出的結論是她還是擁有與A/F22所不同的許多特點。比A/F22更加接近第三代戰鬥機的傳統﹐在隱形﹑機動性方面更加註重後者。


由四代機可能採用進一步改良之後的AL31F或者改良型國產WS10A渦輪風扇發動機的動向判斷﹐雙發中國空軍四代機的基本尺寸與F22應該是接近的。換句話說﹐考慮到隱形化的需要﹐四代機不會擁有SU27的龐大尺寸﹐基本上接近F15和F22的標準。中國公開的兩種風洞試驗模型也表明﹐兩種四代機的尺寸應該在長18米級別﹑高5米級別﹑全幅13米級別的水準。自重可能在15噸級別﹑總重量30噸左右。


兩種四代機的隱形化設計意圖是十分明顯的。它包括鈍化角度的機頭﹑內藏式武器艙﹑傾斜雙垂尾。


平可夫分析認為在機動性與隱形性之間突出機動性的構想反應在機翼設計等方面。兩種沈陽四代機的機翼相當接近傳統﹐類似F15的固定式上單翼﹑平面形狀為刀角三角形。F22為蝶形上單翼﹐前緣後掠角42度﹐後緣前掠角17度。設計中的YF22前緣後掠角一度達到48度﹐因此﹐進一步減小前緣後掠角的目的顯然在於提高地面雷達的不可探測性﹐同時減小阻力﹐有利於機動性。


YF23的蝶形上單翼特徵通過加大後緣前掠角的方式減小了整個機翼面積﹐隱形化特徵更加明顯﹐超音速巡航能力也倍增。相比之下F22的翼展增為13.56米﹐大於YF23﹐加大展弦比的結果使F22的亞音速巡航效率﹑低空﹑低速的機動性方面大大高出YF23。美空軍依然選擇F22的原因也在於更加重視機動性的需要。畢竟未來在第一擊不成功之後﹐F22依然還需要同機動性能力很強的SU27進行近距離格鬥。平可夫認為隱形性更好的YF23敗陣機動性更好更強的YF22﹐很好地說明四代機發展的方向。


沈陽的兩種四代機設計就更加重視機動性。機翼設計相當接近﹐前緣後掠角48度左右﹐與設計中的YF22相當。後緣前掠角0度。展弦比顯然大於F22﹐如此﹐亞音速效率﹑低空低速性有可能好過F22。為對稱機翼﹐平尾後掠角也為大約48度﹐外型幾乎與機翼相同。


沈陽在四代機的機動性﹑隱形性之間側重進一步側重機動性的設計方案顯然與目前階段中國空軍的總體戰略擁有重大關係﹐畢竟中國空軍並沒有"全球到達"的作戰意圖﹐攻防兼備思想中依然突出國土防空的部份。"攻"的因素只是更多地考慮到了進攻台灣的需要。但是四代機還是具備F22的某些隱形特徵。包括機翼融合。兩種四代機的設計都採用了帶邊條的側翼進氣方式﹐進氣口為菱形設計。其中一種方案的進氣口與機體保持29-30度傾斜﹐基本與F22相當﹐因此外型上較為接近F22﹐由此角度推斷﹐沈陽四代機的雙垂尾外傾角度也應該是30度左右。F22的雙垂尾外傾角度29度﹐雙垂尾和平尾都延伸到發動機的噴管後面﹐以便遮擋紅外輻射源。沈陽四代機似乎沒有採用這樣的佈局。發動機噴管似乎延伸到外部。如何降低紅外輻射源﹖中方設計師很可能還在斟酌之中。畢竟目前公開的只是一個風洞模型。同時﹐四代機將要採用的矢量推進發動機技術與F22有所不同。F22所使用的矢量推進噴管實施上下20度的矢量調節。而中國新近公開的矢量噴管可以實施360度矢量調節。因此﹐發動機噴管只能延伸﹐以犧牲隱形性換取更為機動性強的動力系統。


沈陽四代機是否能夠達到F22水平的又一主要標準是動力系統。F22是第一個實現了超音速巡航的實用戰鬥機。採用兩臺P&WF119渦輪風扇發動機﹐最大推力達到15876kgf。可以使F22實現1.58M的超音速巡航。開加力時﹐在9150米高度可以達到M1.7。目前中國還沒有類似大推力的發動機。AL31FN的加力推力12500gf﹐中方消息來源聲稱正在研製當中的WS10A推力高過AL31F﹐但是﹐平可夫相信它依然是12500級別的發動機。因此﹐今後對WS10A的改良顯然勢在必行。否則﹐四代機的試飛可能又會步J10A的後塵﹐在試飛階段使用俄式發動機。SALUT已經宣佈﹐在2003年完成對AL31F的改良。計劃分兩個階段進行﹐首先使改良後的AL31F達到14000kgf的最大推力﹐隨後達到15300kgf。接近30%。並且採用更多的模塊化設計﹐目前中國方面已經表現出很大的興趣。表示可以考慮參與其中的一些研究。可見﹐改良後的AL31F已經可以為俄中的"四代機"提供可以達到超音速巡航的推力。另一種俄式高性能發動機是帶推力矢量噴管的AL41F﹐單臺推力達到20000kgf的標準﹐氣輪入口溫度比中國空軍使用的AL31F高出250度﹐達1700度。到沈陽四代機試飛的時候﹐類似的發動機技術也許會部份運用在WS10A上。

與此同時﹐由J10A的發展已經看出﹐近年來﹐中國的航空複合材料技術開始有所突破。估計在沈陽四代機上會使用更多的複合材料。甚至不低于F22總體24%的標準。由於設計重量大致接近F22﹐改良後的AL31F(117S)也會達到15300kgf的水平﹐因此﹐沈陽四代機的推重比也會達到1以上(平可夫專稿)。
interesting article about the JXX project from Kanwa
 

PrOeLiTeZ

Junior Member
Registered Member
Translation for the non-Chinese readers here:

Kefu Ping assessment, basic tactics is the use ofstealth, implementation of pre-emptive strike, all main features of 5th generation fighters. The pursuit of stealth or high mobility, United States and Russia have focused on elevating these areas in fighter design. F-22 mobility is not as agile as Su30MKI/MKM.

Russian 5th generation fighter will be have its first test flight in 2009.

Source claim China 4th generation fighter (5th in western terms) is about to enter wind tunnel test stage. Time managment and schedule for this 4th generation fighter have been smooth with sufficient funds for development.

System management methods are closer to that of the U.S then Russia. Shenyang like Chengdu may have 2 designs for its 5th generation fighter, will conduct wind tunnel test soon.

Chinese F-22 counterpart should be equal or near in terms of size and weight class. China open 2 wind-tunnel test model shows that 2 designs are about 18 meters long﹑ 5 meters high, wingspan 13 meters. Empty weight 15 tons and 30 tonnes loaded.

China does not intend to assert force, but rather retain friendly relationship, but wants the defence and offence capability if needed. Still most important is air defence, and offence is for scneario such as Tawain. Its design will bear some F-22 characteristics. F-22 used vector nozzle vetical axis of 20 degrees. China's newly open vector nozzle can be 360-degree vertical or horizontal. Therefore, the engine nozzle can only be extended, at the expense of stealth comprimisation of increasing the heat signature by extending the nozzle externally rather then internally. Greater mobility can be achieved, so sacrafising stealth for mobilty or mobilty for stealth.

F22 is the first to achieve a practical supersonic cruise fighter. At present, China has not been able to produce something similar in terms of thrust as the F-119 (engines of F-22). Sources claim that China's WS10A has thrust higher than that of AL31F.

The J-10A's development has seen in recent years, as China's aviation composite materials technology breakthrough. Estimation indicate that China's 5th generation fighter will use even further more composite materials then that of the J-10.



That took me a while so their might be few translation errors, but overall you get the picture. hope you guys appreciate this ^.-
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Is that article old? Didn't an earlier article in here say Shenyang lost out to CAC? They're working on two 5th generation designs?
 
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