J-XX Fighter Aircraft

Re: J-xx

zyun8288 said:

1. Just a simple logic, if it can enter service so quickly (3-4 years), there wouldn't be any need to upgrade J10. CAC would be wasting their time to come up with a F35 like J10; Not to mention that if, as the text said, they are CONCENTRATING on the 4th gen project, they would not have time to make another F35.

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Huh? The text says that they abandoned twin-engined J-10 ("major modification") to focus on J-XX.

This is because J-XX is expected to be ready sooner not later -- continuing work on twin-engined J-10 would be redundant.

But of course a modest upgrade of J-10 is still in the works. New radars and possibly TVC.

zyun8288 said:

1. Start of the project: July 2007

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Just because this "news" came out now doesn't mean the events described actually happened recently. The submission of the proposals from CAC/SAC happened in 2006, and a decision was already made by later half of 2006. Finalizing the design must have started by then already.

Schumacher said:

2010/11 seems very early for J-xx, much earlier than any has suggested so far.
IF indeed 2010/11 timeframe is true, it suggests J-xx won't be too much of a 'revolutionary' jump in tech for PLAAF.
That may not be too bad as a super jet like F-22 that turns out to be too expensive to be bought in numbers may not be the best solution.

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Well you can get some benchmark from the fact that "twin-engined J-10" was abandoned in favor of the more advanced J-XX. And this twin-engined J-10 was intended to match F-35 in air superiority (not strike).


There have been rumors floating around for the past few months that a new CAC aircraft would be flying by the end of the year. It was always assumed that this referred to the twin-engined J-10. Now it looks more and more like this is actually the J-XX!

Re: J-xx

Roger604 said:

I think the roles break down differently. The Chengdu stealth fighter will be a pure air superiority fighter. It will be light. The Shenyang stealth fighter will be heavier and longer range, and also stealthier, more expensive and fewer in number.

In other words, the CAC aircraft is designed for defending airspace against F-22, the SAC aircraft is designed to perform the same role as F-22.

It's also a matter of timing. A 5th generation fighter is needed as soon as possible so I think the Chengdu stealth fighter may enter service as early as 2010. Once you have that, the Shenyang aircraft is not as pressing.

I seriously doubt they would go for a forward swept wing design. The Russians abandoned this route for a good reason.

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I was thinking about Roger604's reply, and following recent posts including the cancelling of the twin tengined J-10, and I think he is correct is labelling the CAC aircraft as having an Air Superiority focus.

Conceptually I see the CAC J-XX as similar to the F-35 in that it is single engined with two bomb bays, but not the focus on close air support as the F-35 has. Similar also to the Typhoon in that it is primarily designed for air superiority and with a broadly similar overall layout (delta wing with canards - a cut down Mig 1.44?).

A singled engined air superiority aircraft always made sense to me given the need for internal weapons carriage and keeping the aircraft highly manoeuvrable. A F-35-style bomb bay configuration should allow a stealthy J-10 to carry 2 x short range AAMs and 4 x medium/long AAMs.

This aircraft would essentially be a J-10 with a larger wing, more powerful engine (say 14,500kg class or better), internal bomb bays, and other stealth features. This aircraft may well be achievable by 2011.

On the other matter of FSW and need for a 5th Gen fighter as soon as possible, I will discuss later.

Re: J-xx

Roger,
Firstly, please read the chinese text you posted again. It does NOT say that CAC's F35 alike plane is the Twin engined J10. It says, 1. CAC is co-op with SAC on JXX, 2. CAC is independantly working on modified J10, and the most advanced one is required to compete with F35 3. Twin engined J10 is abandoned.

In other words, it says CAC is working on a F22 and a F35 at the same time; and you even think that the F22 alike will come into service in 2011.

Secondly, evenif I give another 6 month to push the start date to Dec 2006, Do you think this F22 class plane can still go into service by 2011? And it's produced by SAC, then test flown by CAC at the end of this year?

Are you serious?

Anyway, enough for me. Just be careful about this twin engine J10 and stealthy J10. It's true that they are real concepts. But the sh*t around these topics in chinese military fourms are very deep, most of which are just pure personal hatred or love for the sake of argument only.

Re: J-xx

zyun8288 said:

It does NOT say that CAC's F35 alike plane is the Twin engined J10.

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Not my problem if you can't read Chinese. 大10 (Super 10) and 大改 (Super modified 10) both refer to the twin-engined J-10. The last sentence explicitly says that the original plans have changed... the original plans being the aircraft mentioned in line 2 -- Super 10.

Re: J-xx

Roger604 said:

Not my problem if you can't read Chinese. 大10 (Super 10) and 大改 (Super modified 10) both refer to the twin-engined J-10. The last sentence explicitly says that the original plans have changed... the original plans being the aircraft mentioned in line 2 -- Super 10.

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zyun is right,
以cf原来的计划----大10下马了,全力搞4代
that says twin engined J-10 project is dropped.
the modified J-10 still refers to single engined project. The only question is whether it's the modified J-10 that just test flew recently or it's followup

Re: J-xx

That just wouldn't make any sense at all. If 大10 doesn't refer to J-10's 大改 (F-35 comparable), then that would be saying CAC is still making a single engined (!) J-10 that is expected to be comparable with F-35, and also developing the J-XX.

That just doesn't make any sense. It's far more logical to read both 大10 and 大改 as being the same thing... the F-35 comparable project was dropped.

Re: J-xx

Roger604 said:

That just wouldn't make any sense at all. If 大10 doesn't refer to J-10's 大改 (F-35 comparable), then that would be saying CAC is still making a single engined (!) J-10 that is expected to be comparable with F-35, and also developing the J-XX.

That just doesn't make any sense. It's far more logical to read both 大10 and 大改 as being the same thing... the F-35 comparable project was dropped.

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下马 means the project is canned.
The modified J-10 is not expected to be as good as F-35, but just be able to defend against F-35 on Chinese soil

Re: J-xx

Your reading of it means that at some point, CAC had three projects... slightly modified J-10, heavily modified single-engined J-10 (expected to defend against F-35), and twin-engined J-10. And now they have two of these plus J-XX (with SAC).

Unless you have some other source that gives further insight. I still think this an improbable reading of the posting.

It makes far more sense if CAC had just two projects... slightly modified J-10 and twin-engined, heavily modified J-10 (expected to defend against F-35). Then the latter one is dropped (or "canned") in favor of J-XX. Because otherwise this would be redundant with J-XX.

Re: J-xx

you sure it is SAC that is crying? well SAC lost some areas to CAC, but it was said CAC's share is still small, and has to be shared with others, so it is CAC that is crying, and if CAC only recieved the parts on avionics and FBW, whereas SAC will be the one actully building the plane
4代sf输了,航电,飞控,等等一些主要项目别cf拿走了,cf就分到些比较小的,还是和别人一起分的,所 以在哭鼻子.

Re: J-xx

Another point: "大10" obviously references "10" as in "J-10". This implies it is belongs to the J-10 family. That means when the author uses "大10" at the end of the passage, he has already discussed it along with other J-10 versions ("10系列") in line 2. Therefore, we must conclude "大10" was referred to when the author talked about J-10 "先进的一种是大改".