J-XX Fighter Aircraft

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

Ok fine.

2010-2015 is not very reliable time frame for it to enter service. No airframe has yet been decided, no engines, no avionics, etc. To put things into perspective, the J-10 started in the early 80's is still not yet in FULL active service in 2005. That is 20+ years of developement. The same with the Raptor, Eurofighter, and Rafale development programs.

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For the last time, J-10 is in service. It just officially got unveiled a couple of days ago by Xinhua and People's daily.

The way I look at it is this. J-10 entered tunnel testing in 1993, first prototype came out in 1998 and started pre-production in 2002 and first regiment joined in service in 2004 and got enveiled in 2005.

If we use a similar schedule for J-XX. We know that it entered wind tunnel testing in 2003 according to JDW, so the frist prototype should come out in 2008 and hopefully first regiment will join service by 2014. I'm sure J-xx has been ongoing.

(note, 4th generation in China = 5th generation for Russia)
The way I look at it is this, there is the heavy weight 4th generation fighter by SAC and the medium weight 4th generation fighter CAC right now. SAC is getting help from Sukhoi and CAC is getting help from Mikoloyan based on MFI. My guess is that CAC will produce its 4th generation fighter much faster due to the experience it gained from producing J-10. This plane is often called J-12. In fact, J-12 supposedly is often called the twin engined J-10. It's capability will probably be in the Rafale range, probably not as good as EF-2000. The one produced by SAC should come out later and that should be the J-14. This should be not as good as F-22, but on the same level as F-35 and PAK FA.

Re: J-xx

tphuang said:

For the last time, J-10 is in service. It just officially got unveiled a couple of days ago by Xinhua and People's daily.

The way I look at it is this. J-10 entered tunnel testing in 1993, first prototype came out in 1998 and started pre-production in 2002 and first regiment joined in service in 2004 and got enveiled in 2005.

If we use a similar schedule for J-XX. We know that it entered wind tunnel testing in 2003 according to JDW, so the frist prototype should come out in 2008 and hopefully first regiment will join service by 2014. I'm sure J-xx has been ongoing.

(note, 4th generation in China = 5th generation for Russia)
The way I look at it is this, there is the heavy weight 4th generation fighter by SAC and the medium weight 4th generation fighter CAC right now. SAC is getting help from Sukhoi and CAC is getting help from Mikoloyan based on MFI. My guess is that CAC will produce its 4th generation fighter much faster due to the experience it gained from producing J-10. This plane is often called J-12. In fact, J-12 supposedly is often called the twin engined J-10. It's capability will probably be in the Rafale range, probably not as good as EF-2000. The one produced by SAC should come out later and that should be the J-14. This should be not as good as F-22, but on the same level as F-35 and PAK FA.

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2008 prototype? lets see...the j-10 had its first prototype in 1998, but encountered difficulties in fbw. we can assume the j-xx will face similar or new difficulties. lets not use the j-10 timeframe from j-xx, remeber, the j-10 program ot delayed several years after the embargo, until the russians offered the al-31. the j-xx program has proceeded smoothly to this point.

Re: J-xx

j-xx program has proceeded smoothly to this point.

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And how can you know that?

Re: J-xx

MIGleader said:

2008 prototype? lets see...the j-10 had its first prototype in 1998, but encountered difficulties in fbw. we can assume the j-xx will face similar or new difficulties. lets not use the j-10 timeframe from j-xx, remeber, the j-10 program ot delayed several years after the embargo, until the russians offered the al-31. the j-xx program has proceeded smoothly to this point.

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There are very variables that can delay the JXX.

First, what kind of engine will be used? Is it indigenous or Russian? China's engine technology is not to par with Russian or western ones. Russian engines could be a possibility but unless Russia gives its best hardware, the JXX will not be as "good" as claimed.
Isn't Russia and India collaborating on the PAK FA?

Second, avionics and weapons wuite. Is it ready yet? What kind will be used? Will it be on par with top of the line AESA radars of the USAF of today?

Third, design and airframe. Is it finalized yet?

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

There are very variables that can delay the JXX.

First, what kind of engine will be used? Is it indigenous or Russian? China's engine technology is not to par with Russian or western ones. Russian engines could be a possibility but unless Russia gives its best hardware, the JXX will not be as "good" as claimed.
Isn't Russia and India collaborating on the PAK FA?

Second, avionics and weapons wuite. Is it ready yet? What kind will be used? Will it be on par with top of the line AESA radars of the USAF of today?

Third, design and airframe. Is it finalized yet?

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as for the engine, most believe its going to be the al-41, the 3d tvc engines that powers the mig-1.44. of course, the engine is only semi-developed, and the chinese and russians are embarking on a joint projec to further develop the engine(supercruise?).

avionics: we really dont now. were assuming thats its probably still under development. developing avionics shouldnt be that hard. israeli or french assistance could be called upon if nessacery. the chinese already developed a decent avionics and fbw suite for j-10, so the j-xx avionics should be pretty advanced. depends on how far technology progresses by then.

as for the radar, its also going to depend on how far technology goes by that time. perhaps the a phazotron radar will be used, or an israeli radar. chinas indegedous radar development has made nice progress. as with j-10, the chinese would compare their options. but i highly suspect an indegedous radar will be used, so the chinese can field sd-10 and other china-made weapons without giving out the launch code.

design? its already done wind tunnel testing. im guessing the chinese are fixing up the last glitches in design right now. a prototype design will be rolling out soon.

Re: J-xx

MIGleader said:

as for the engine, most believe its going to be the al-41, the 3d tvc engines that powers the mig-1.44. of course, the engine is only semi-developed, and the chinese and russians are embarking on a joint projec to further develop the engine(supercruise?).

avionics: we really dont now. were assuming thats its probably still under development. developing avionics shouldnt be that hard. israeli or french assistance could be called upon if nessacery. the chinese already developed a decent avionics and fbw suite for j-10, so the j-xx avionics should be pretty advanced. depends on how far technology progresses by then.

as for the radar, its also going to depend on how far technology goes by that time. perhaps the a phazotron radar will be used, or an israeli radar. chinas indegedous radar development has made nice progress. as with j-10, the chinese would compare their options. but i highly suspect an indegedous radar will be used, so the chinese can field sd-10 and other china-made weapons without giving out the launch code.

design? its already done wind tunnel testing. im guessing the chinese are fixing up the last glitches in design right now. a prototype design will be rolling out soon.

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J-12 is likely to use 2 WS-13A with TVC or maybe RD-333. J-14 is likely to use AL-41F. Also, China is developing the next generation engine right now. The core is showing good progress. This is supposed be the engine with T/W ratio of 10. It might be another WS-10A thing, where China will use Russian engine first, before shifting to domestic engine. Also, you have to remember that China is codeveloping this with Russia.

As for avionics, I think China is catching up quite fast. It developed it's own SAR and pod. As for radar, lab 14 is working hard at it. However, I'd like to see a phased array radar first for J-10. We know that 14 is definitely working toward an AESA radar.

Re: J-xx

must also remember that China's technological and industrial base is expanding Very very fast.

i think they will work on current ws engine models and come up with one similar to su-37 (ie superior TV) so that it can actually hope to DODGE an incoming missile if got detected... don't forget mach 2+ supercruise!!!

also, they should attach back-looking radars like the new suhkois on some variants for very deep penetration...

and on others, they could incorporate the mig 1.44 plasma coating (if they acquire it), as an option... its always better to have 2 systems than 1!!! (conventional stealth & plasma stealth)


PS: don't forget active laser defence too!!! (ok maybe i'm going a little too far lol :china: )

Re: J-xx

chopsticks said:

they could incorporate the mig 1.44 plasma coating (if they acquire it), as an option... its always better to have 2 systems than 1!!! (conventional stealth & plasma stealth)

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sounds nice that plasma coating thing, but how does it work in real? Till this point it more or less just sounds like some science fiction to me...
In addtion I think that even if such technology exists (I doubt if mig1.44 really has it), it seems very unlikely that China could ever acquire this technology in the nearby future (e.g. to be incorporated into j-14)....

tphuang said:

J-14 is likely to use AL-41F

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Oh yeah? how do you know that? Are the Russians willing to sell this engine to china? I just can't rememer I've encountered something like this elsewhere.....

Re: J-xx

There is enough rumbling coming out of informed Chinese military forums to believe that there is at least some form of cooperation going on bw China and Russia in developing a engine with T/W ratio of 10. I posted one of the article back a few weeks ago. It appears that China is going to finance a large part of the development. Anyhow, we can assume that the engine isn't going to be an issue, because of the possible Chinese and Russian engine that is being developed. Heck, we might even see AL-41F1 on J-10 in the future. As for stealth, I think China is not going the plasma stealth way. You do realize that with plasma stealth on, you are not only blocking outside radar but also your own outgoing radar, right? As for a dedicated radar looking backward. That's a definite possibility. I guess we will see.

Re: J-xx

tphuang said:

You do realize that with plasma stealth on, you are not only blocking outside radar but also your own outgoing radar, right?

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!!! i didn't know that!!!

but yeah i guess the plasma absorbs EM waves from all directions...


IMO cooperation between China and Russia on major parts of the project other than engine (in future maybe) seems likely too... esp since Russia doesn't have much funds left for R&D while China needs Russian experience and know-how... i guess cooperation is really a win-win for both sides...