J-XX Fighter Aircraft

Re: J-xx

MIGleader said:

so tell me what a mig 1.44 is? it has some decent avionics and radar too. dont judge the newer russian aircraft by their shitty precedents. im confident in russia's abilities to develop fourth generation aircraft, and the advnaced technologies (such as plasma) associated with them. a lack of $$$=no deployment

as of now, china isnt at f-22 level yet. but assistance from russia, ukraine, israel is certain to help it close the gap.

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Mig 1.44 is a technology demostrator. Russians has always been behind the US in avionics and that was when there was a massive military spending to fund R&D. What makes you think they can catch up with little funding. The tech gap between the US and Russia is widening every day.

China can't even build a plane comparable to the F-15, which the US put into service in the early 70's (30 years ago).

All this "my plane is better than your plane" talk is just silly and moot. The US never fights fair. Thanks to US force multipliers such as jamming (both radar and communications), stealth, AEW, and decoys, any pilots, whether flying one of the Super Flankers or not, has already lost before he even gets his landing gears up.

The US did a study of air combat and found out that most kills from the greatest aces (from the Red Baron to Vietnam) come when they achieve complete surprise from their opponent. That is, their enemy did not even know they were there until they fire. The F-22 is designed to exploit this. It can't be seen by radar and is both fast and agile, a deadly combination.

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

China can't even build a plane comparable to the F-15, which the US put into service in the early 70's (30 years ago).


The F-22 is designed to exploit this. It can't be seen by radar and is both fast and agile, a deadly combination.

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Disagree on that statement. China can build planes comparable to F-15. and nothing is invisible to radar. It only reduces it's signature. And never solely rely on a peice of technology to win a war.

Re: J-xx

Mr_C said:

Disagree on that statement. China can build planes comparable to F-15. and nothing is invisible to radar. It only reduces it's signature. And never solely rely on a peice of technology to win a war.

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Yes, China can build the J-11, but the pure R&D and other key components are supplied by Russia. To date, the best that China can do is the J-10.

Not on a single piece of technology but many pieces of technology.

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

Mig 1.44 is a technology demostrator. Russians has always been behind the US in avionics and that was when there was a massive military spending to fund R&D. What makes you think they can catch up with little funding. The tech gap between the US and Russia is widening every day.

China can't even build a plane comparable to the F-15, which the US put into service in the early 70's (30 years ago).

All this "my plane is better than your plane" talk is just silly and moot. The US never fights fair. Thanks to US force multipliers such as jamming (both radar and communications), stealth, AEW, and decoys, any pilots, whether flying one of the Super Flankers or not, has already lost before he even gets his landing gears up.

The US did a study of air combat and found out that most kills from the greatest aces (from the Red Baron to Vietnam) come when they achieve complete surprise from their opponent. That is, their enemy did not even know they were there until they fire. The F-22 is designed to exploit this. It can't be seen by radar and is both fast and agile, a deadly combination.

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oh, so your saying china and russia dont have special jammers, awacs, decoys, radar either?:rofl:

chinas j-11 is comparable to the f-15. even if it was initaially russian, the chiense can amke it now. the j-10 is f-16 level.

china's not that far from a fifth gen fighter. i see them comming out 2010-2015, and they will be produced and deployed 2015-2020.

as for russian avionics...you havnt seen ther inside of an su-35 or mig 1,44, so dont talk!!!

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

Mig 1.44 is a technology demostrator. Russians has always been behind the US in avionics and that was when there was a massive military spending to fund R&D. What makes you think they can catch up with little funding..

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"funding" is only accurately measured with PPP.
look at how much China spent sending Shenzhou VI. :china:

IDonT said:

China can't even build a plane comparable to the F-15, which the US put into service in the early 70's (30 years ago).

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show some proof. otherwise, simulations by US govt. shows that Su-30 has 100% chance of winning F-15. go read up on why if u want to know. so, J-11 (Su-27) can't match up to F-15?? such bull. :coffee:

IDonT said:

All this "my plane is better than your plane" talk is just silly and moot. The US never fights fair. Thanks to US force multipliers such as jamming (both radar and communications), stealth, AEW, and decoys, any pilots, whether flying one of the Super Flankers or not, has already lost before he even gets his landing gears up.

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it is silly. (so why are u contributing to it?)
and, China doesn't have force multipliers? ever heard of SAM along China coast?

IDonT said:

The F-22 is designed to exploit this. It can't be seen by radar and is both fast and agile, a deadly combination.

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LOL! :rofl: i can't believe u actually buy the "f-22 is invisible to radar" crap.

firstly, f-22 is only REDUCED RCS.
and this reduction is only maximal from CERTAIN ANGLES. like the FRONT or FRONT-SIDES.
get close enough and you will still see the plane from the front.

as with the back and top of the plane, its "stealth" is greatly compromised.
that is why awacs and satellites, along with newer radars (separate transmit/recieve nodes) are very easily able to detect such "stealth" structures. its really not something new. someone actually posted an article sometime ago on this.
Generally speaking, if a plane were stealth on ALL SIDES, it WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FLY. lol!!!

Re: J-xx

chopsticks LOL! :rofl: i can't believe u actually buy the "f-22 is invisible to radar" crap. firstly said:

Did you read my post?


Let me remind you.
The US did a study of air combat and found out that most kills from the greatest aces (from the Red Baron to Vietnam) come when they achieve complete surprise from their opponent. That is, their enemy did not even know they were there until they fire. The F-22 is designed to exploit this. It can't be seen by radar and is both fast and agile, a deadly combination

Most aerial kills in the history of aerial combat happened when the plane that got shot down did not even know that their opponent was there. There are tactics you can use to achieve this. In WWII, flying higher or inside cloud cover and diving down from the sun was a popular tactic. In modern times, the Israel AF used extensive communication and radar jamming to blind the Syrians while using Hawkeye and F-15 radars as Mini-awacs to give their pilots greater situational awareness, to massacre the Syrian AF. The Syrian pilots did know that the air environment was hot, but did not know where the IAF planes where until they were shot down. The result IAF 80, Syria 0.

The F-22 is designed to take advantage of this. It is practically impossible to see it from the front. Its active radar is harder to detected via passive means and its infrared signiture is very low. In a combat environment, the F-22 pilot will see their enemy first before the enemy can see it. That's what they mean by "first look-first kill."

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Re: J-xx

MIGleader said:

oh, so your saying china and russia dont have special jammers, awacs, decoys, radar either?:rofl:

chinas j-11 is comparable to the f-15. even if it was initaially russian, the chiense can amke it now. the j-10 is f-16 level.

china's not that far from a fifth gen fighter. i see them comming out 2010-2015, and they will be produced and deployed 2015-2020.

as for russian avionics...you havnt seen ther inside of an su-35 or mig 1,44, so dont talk!!!

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hey mig,

The J-11 is just a licensed to build version of the Su-27. China at this moment cannot design, build, and field a F-15 level fighter on its own. The J-10 is close but it is actually comparable to early model F-16 and uses many Russian components. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

The US strength in the cold war has always been avionics. The Russians did not possess look down shoot down capability until a spy gave them schematics in the late 70's. Most Russian systems are a descendant of that system.


The Phazotron PH and NIIP N-011M. They can track up to 24 targets while simultaneously engaging 6. This is up to a range of 400 kilometers and 200 kilometers for ground targets. Both antennae are of the fixed type and have only a limited scan electronically +-60 degrees so it is likely that they will be fitted to a mechanical scanner as well as their electronic scanning to improve airspace coverage.


The AWG-9 is a pulse-Doppler, multi-mode radar with a designed capability to track 24 targets at the same time while simultaneously devising and executing fire control solutions for 6 targets.

Same capability as the F-14, an aircraft with radar put into service in the 70's.

Re: J-xx

I wouldn't say the Chinese don't have the ability to make an F15.

They do.

The reason Chinese chose to use the SU27 to build upon is it saves them time, and money. It is cheaper to absorb the SU27 and improve upon it than to build from scratch.

In the last decade, China has made incredible progress in all areas. They are working on the JXX. They wouldn't try to do it alone if they couldn't.

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

hey mig,

The J-11 is just a licensed to build version of the Su-27. China at this moment cannot design, build, and field a F-15 level fighter on its own. The J-10 is close but it is actually comparable to early model F-16 and uses many Russian components. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

The US strength in the cold war has always been avionics. The Russians did not possess look down shoot down capability until a spy gave them schematics in the late 70's. Most Russian systems are a descendant of that system.

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The Phazotron PH and NIIP N-011M. They can track up to 24 targets while simultaneously engaging 6. This is up to a range of 400 kilometers and 200 kilometers for ground targets. Both antennae are of the fixed type and have only a limited scan electronically +-60 degrees so it is likely that they will be fitted to a mechanical scanner as well as their electronic scanning to improve airspace coverage.

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The AWG-9 is a pulse-Doppler, multi-mode radar with a designed capability to track 24 targets at the same time while simultaneously devising and executing fire control solutions for 6 targets.

Same capability as the F-14, an aircraft with radar put into service in the 70's.

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thats because the f-14 has a bigger nose to fit radar. in the 70's, the russians came out with the zaslon, which is their equivalent to awg-9, considered one of the most powerfu; fighter radfars in the world.

the j-10 is as good as any block 40 f-16. it utilizes a russian engine for now, but that will be amended to with ws-10a.

Re: J-xx

IDonT said:

Did you read my post?


Let me remind you.
The US did a study of air combat and found out that most kills from the greatest aces (from the Red Baron to Vietnam) come when they achieve complete surprise from their opponent. That is, their enemy did not even know they were there until they fire. The F-22 is designed to exploit this. It can't be seen by radar and is both fast and agile, a deadly combination

Most aerial kills in the history of aerial combat happened when the plane that got shot down did not even know that their opponent was there. There are tactics you can use to achieve this. In WWII, flying higher or inside cloud cover and diving down from the sun was a popular tactic. In modern times, the Israel AF used extensive communication and radar jamming to blind the Syrians while using Hawkeye and F-15 radars as Mini-awacs to give their pilots greater situational awareness, to massacre the Syrian AF. The Syrian pilots did know that the air environment was hot, but did not know where the IAF planes where until they were shot down. The result IAF 80, Syria 0.

The F-22 is designed to take advantage of this. It is practically impossible to see it from the front. Its active radar is harder to detected via passive means and its infrared signiture is very low. In a combat environment, the F-22 pilot will see their enemy first before the enemy can see it. That's what they mean by "first look-first kill."

Click to expand...

if i didn't read your post, how would i have quoted u?

let me say this AGAIN, f-22 is REDUCED RCS, it is by no means INVISIBLE TO RADAR!!! lol!!!

go read up if u wanna know more on ways to detect "stealth" aircraft, the Chinese, Russian, and French all have this sort of technology...

basically u emit a radar wave of very low frequency at say point A, then u have a reciever at point B, maybe tens or hundreds of kilometres away to recieve the signal. when the signal gets disrupted, u know something is there. if it aint your plane, then u know what it is.
this is not as simple as it seems, because, each of this transmit/recieve nodes are both able to do both at the same time, thereby forming a "net" of information. the raptor will NOT be able to achieve "stealth" if they are so bold enough to enter Chinese land territory.. simple as that.
i've heard somewhere that the Chinese even uses their commercial TV band radiowave for detection, thereby encompassing almost the ENTIRE of populated China.

f-22 is only effective against high-band traditional radars where u read the "bounced off" signal directly from where it is emitted.
this is TOO able to detect raptor at ranges <10 - 15km (latest Russian and Chinese design or so i heard)

the only true "stealth" is achieved by the hypothetical mig 1.44 prototype, which if indeed proves to be true, will be "stealth" on all directions because the entire structure of the plane is coated in radar absorbing plasma (not sure if its effective against above mentioned radar net, don't think so tho). but i highly doubt the functionability and practicability of it anyways..
even if this Russian design worked (which would make it wayy superior to f-22), it still had to deal with IR and jet plume signatures, which satellites find easy to track nowadays mind u. (they only need the rough location!!!)

so in conclusion, f-22 is just as good as a bullying tool for "regimes" like saddam. period.





PS:
By the way, if u read up on f-22 ability to detect other aircraft, u will realise it uses a very redundant method of "passive" tracking. because if it turns on its own radar, it will immediately be like a lighthouse/homing beacon. so, all opponent aircraft just has to turn off THEIR radar and wait for position on f-22 (provided they do not have heavy satellite and radar net support).
therefore, when engaged in a fight, f-22 relies heavily on awacs, which relay enemy position to f-22 to gun down the opponent, so, all u have to do is shoot down the awacs, and the f-22 will be "flying blind". if it turns on its radar, immediately it will see countless missiles screeching towards it...

and ANYWAY, it is NOT INVISIBLE TO RADAR TO BEGIN WITH!!!