J-XX Fighter Aircraft

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tphuang

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Re: J-xx

IDonT said:
hey mig,

The J-11 is just a licensed to build version of the Su-27. China at this moment cannot design, build, and field a F-15 level fighter on its own. The J-10 is close but it is actually comparable to early model F-16 and uses many Russian components. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

The US strength in the cold war has always been avionics. The Russians did not possess look down shoot down capability until a spy gave them schematics in the late 70's. Most Russian systems are a descendant of that system.

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The Phazotron PH and NIIP N-011M. They can track up to 24 targets while simultaneously engaging 6. This is up to a range of 400 kilometers and 200 kilometers for ground targets. Both antennae are of the fixed type and have only a limited scan electronically +-60 degrees so it is likely that they will be fitted to a mechanical scanner as well as their electronic scanning to improve airspace coverage.

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The AWG-9 is a pulse-Doppler, multi-mode radar with a designed capability to track 24 targets at the same time while simultaneously devising and executing fire control solutions for 6 targets.

Same capability as the F-14, an aircraft with radar put into service in the 70's.
seriously, check the official stats from the manufacturer for N-011M.
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120-140KM detection range again 5 m^2 targets, 15/4 for track and engage.
As mentionned in the bm thread, even Irbis's range is only 170 KM vs 5 m^2 targets.

As for J-10, you've been dissing J-10 pretty much everywhere.You've been saying that it's not in service in other forums, but there are already 2 regiments of it and it's picture has been posted on all the official Chinese news sites and mentionned as the new Chinese fighter jet. Other than the engine, which other Russian component is J-10 using? Do you have proof that it's only at early model of F-16? I maintain it's at the level of early block 50/52 F-16s in terms of A2A combat and maybe block 30/32 in terms of multirole. Remember early block 50/52 were still using v5 of apg-68 and only had two monochrome MFDs.



Back to J-XX, this is a widely posted article on J-xx development:

 (声明:资料皆来源于公开渠道,无涉其他)

  近来有人在中华军事网上发帖指出,现在发展第四代追求第四代歼击机是不切实际的空想,还罗列了几条理由。总结起来,也就是一句话:客观上我们的基础差、底子薄;主观上是我们盲目攀比得不好心态导致的不切实际外在表现。读到这篇帖子,还以为是九十年代的老文,没想到就是前天的帖子。我们现在大力搞第四代难道真的是选择了一个错误的历史空间?但现在天空的具体生态早已发生了质的转变,早在上世纪末美国独步天下的22就已经翱展天空,06年大量换装的 35就要像当年的16一样将走向新的空战舞台,而所谓的准四代早在欧洲存在了近10年。再回头看看我们航空工业在整个十五计划期间的成果,歼十定型、歼十一改进入最后定型试飞阶段、推比八进入了最后的定型测试阶段、推比十核心机一南一北进展顺利,一型将要在近期上高空台、、、用了三个五年计划,我们走完了整个三代机研制的全过程,在人力和设计生产工艺上我们都以此为契机进行了全面的革新。在这样的历史语境下,进行我们的第四代,难道真的是空中楼阁,不切实际?那么就再让我们回归一下我们的第四代的发展过程,看看是不知真的逾越了战斗机发展的规律。

  在十号工程取得重大进展的八十年中后期,我们针对二十一世纪的空战模式,也为了追踪当时世界上歼击机发展的前沿技术,展开了以美国第四代机为背景机的预先研制。背景机的开展,为我们发展发展第四代奠定了坚实的基础,用611人的话说:“目前,研究所已对下一代歼击机的技术进行了长期、大量的预先研究和探索,一些目前只有美国才掌握了的先进技术研究所也摸透了它的机理,并成功地设计出可在新型歼击机上使用的实用性设计方案,此外,在矢量推力、隐身技术等方面也取得了突破性的进展。” 这些技术具体体现在,14所和607所作为我国航空机载电子设备两个重要研究基地均已突破了机载相控阵技术,其中607所的某型神鹰雷达已进入测试阶段, 14所的147x型机载有源相控阵正在全面发展之中,也已取得重大技术突破;“传感器数据融合”技术;在某型三代机上已经初步具备超音速巡航;dsi进气道(“(1)摸透了气动原理;(2)探索出一套工程设计方法;(3)开展了CFD方法流场计算;(4)完成了设计方案和外形生成;(5)完成了高、低速风洞试验”)和发动机加矢量喷管试验取得重大成功;高推比核心机即将上高空台。

  在各子预研项目顺利进行同时,各研究所也开展了飞机设计方案论证,对各种启动布局进行的前期探索,这些探索可以分为两个阶段。第一个阶段,当时应该是比较稳健的一套路子,那就是准四代,不要求具备超音速巡航能力,但要求隐身和过失速机动,这一时期的主要成果就是91方案、92方案、93方案和新93方案,但随着新的重歼的引入和我们技术积累的日渐成熟,准四代在11b\c就能够完全实现,而歼十推倒重来进展也颇是顺利,面对这种形势,国家则提出了完整第四代的目标。如是在2000年上下,91方案、92方案、93方案和新93方案被纷纷披漏于网上,而从今天的眼光看其中的选型,的确有些准四代的影子。完整意义上的第四代的设计方案论证也是几经周折,有人指出其中有个94方案,但据我推断,其实是01以后的才是最后定型选型方案。而其中的d型( 鸭式布局,V型垂尾,贝壳式座舱,内置武器舱,良好的隐身气动设计,双发(两台中推某型/WS-14:3级风扇,6级高压压气机,推比10,二元推力矢量喷管,FADEC),有源相控阵雷达(T/R组件 1997年研制成功,上世纪末出工程样机,14所研制)。十五期间正式开始进入工程研制状态,2006前后首飞,2008年左右正式服役,目标是机动性能优于现F22A,其与各项技术指标至少与之相当----注:以前我们的推测)取得了不错的进展,因为完整四代地提出,而被更新的设计方案所替代。

  选型方案论证结束之后,接下来又要经历那些流程哪?根据歼击机的研制流程一般是这样子的,背景机预研到启动布局方案的选型结束(这期间要进行模型吹风验证),初步设计,详细设计,设计技术冻结,第一架原型机的试制,首飞及设计定型试飞,批量生产。现在各研究所基本实现了数字化设计,飞机研制生产逐步从模拟量传递向数字量传递的转变,研制周期已大大缩短。在今年的报道中有了如下报道:“今年是六○一所科研生产任务最为繁重的一年,重点型号和预研工作都到了十分关键的时刻。在繁重而艰巨的任务面前,为了确保多种型号任务顺利完成,做好“十五”预研验收和“十一五”预研的开题工作,研究所决定大干100天,向管理要效率,练好本领,打好基础”,“此次“会战”是以某重点型号飞机发图为核心的全任务加班。在科学分析全年工作的基础上,合理安排全年工作任务。做到早启动,早准备,在“会战”中提高技术管理水平,为迎接新任务、促进研究所长期发展做准备。”。有人将“某重点型号飞机发图”视为11某型,但根据03及 04年的报道,11工程已经胜利结束(见我下面发的图片资料)。而在《中国航空报》2005年4月29的报道中, “601所以新一代战斗机为背景,开展了突出超音速巡航、隐身、高机动等特性的各种布局方案的研究”, “在总体气动布局方案设计、部件参数选择、总体/气动/隐身一体化设计等方面取得了突破性进展,所优选出的总体气动方案全面达到设计要求”,“在飞机总体综合设计、推力矢量、加受油等关键技术研究方面”也取得了突破性进展。

  行文至此,我的判断将跃然纸上,我们的第四代不是空中的楼阁,它正在向我们走近,只是这需要我们多些呵护和鼓励,少些冷嘲与不自信。
 
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Eurofighter

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Re: J-xx

chopsticks said:
so in conclusion, f-22 is just as good as a bullying tool for "regimes" like saddam. period.


oh come on, I know you are very emotional when it comes to affairs linked to national pride and prestige, but please try not to overstate things....

F-22 is the best plane ever made by man. stealth is only one of its advantage, and yes, stealth can certainly be countered in numerous different ways but to say that stealth is then completely useless, is foolish.

If it come to a air battle between F-22s and J-11s, SU-30s or J-10s, then I would definately put all my stock into F-22s! Of course, I rather had it that the Eurofighter is the best plane but...

However, I do have high confidence that china is closing the techno gap at a incredible pace, so who knows, J-xx really could be the next big thing...:)
 
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chopsticks

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

Eurofighter said:
oh come on, I know you are very emotional when it comes to affairs linked to national pride and prestige, but please try not to overstate things....

F-22 is the best plane ever made by man. stealth is only one of its advantage, and yes, stealth can certainly be countered in numerous different ways but to say that stealth is then completely useless, is foolish.

If it come to a air battle between F-22s and J-11s, SU-30s or J-10s, then I would definately put all my stock into F-22s! Of course, I rather had it that the Eurofighter is the best plane but...

However, I do have high confidence that china is closing the techno gap at a incredible pace, so who knows, J-xx really could be the next big thing...:)


i didn't say that f-22 is all useless... it does have certain advantages of course and it IS a good plane.. but its not all invincible if u know what i mean...

what i meant was, with enough J-10s and J-11s, f-22s can still be defeated.. especially within Chinese territory... and not too difficult to be done. correct me if im wrong but f-22 isnt even navalised yet.. and they have a good reason not to be.. (yet)



PS: btw i think eurofighter (typhoon) is a cool-looking plane :)
 

Mr_C

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Re: J-xx

IDont, it seems like u r still living in the late 80s and early 90s.
Anyway the F-22 is an excellent aircraft. But like i said before, it will not be the determinant of victory.
 

IDonT

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chopsticks said:
if i didn't read your post, how would i have quoted u? :confused:

let me say this AGAIN, f-22 is REDUCED RCS, it is by no means INVISIBLE TO RADAR!!! lol!!!

go read up if u wanna know more on ways to detect "stealth" aircraft, the Chinese, Russian, and French all have this sort of technology...

basically u emit a radar wave of very low frequency at say point A, then u have a reciever at point B, maybe tens or hundreds of kilometres away to recieve the signal. when the signal gets disrupted, u know something is there. if it aint your plane, then u know what it is.
this is not as simple as it seems, because, each of this transmit/recieve nodes are both able to do both at the same time, thereby forming a "net" of information. the raptor will NOT be able to achieve "stealth" if they are so bold enough to enter Chinese land territory.. simple as that.
i've heard somewhere that the Chinese even uses their commercial TV band radiowave for detection, thereby encompassing almost the ENTIRE of populated China.

f-22 is only effective against high-band traditional radars where u read the "bounced off" signal directly from where it is emitted.
this is TOO able to detect raptor at ranges <10 - 15km (latest Russian and Chinese design or so i heard)

the only true "stealth" is achieved by the hypothetical mig 1.44 prototype, which if indeed proves to be true, will be "stealth" on all directions because the entire structure of the plane is coated in radar absorbing plasma (not sure if its effective against above mentioned radar net, don't think so tho). but i highly doubt the functionability and practicability of it anyways..
even if this Russian design worked (which would make it wayy superior to f-22), it still had to deal with IR and jet plume signatures, which satellites find easy to track nowadays mind u. (they only need the rough location!!!)

so in conclusion, f-22 is just as good as a bullying tool for "regimes" like saddam. period.





PS:
By the way, if u read up on f-22 ability to detect other aircraft, u will realise it uses a very redundant method of "passive" tracking. because if it turns on its own radar, it will immediately be like a lighthouse/homing beacon. so, all opponent aircraft just has to turn off THEIR radar and wait for position on f-22 (provided they do not have heavy satellite and radar net support).
therefore, when engaged in a fight, f-22 relies heavily on awacs, which relay enemy position to f-22 to gun down the opponent, so, all u have to do is shoot down the awacs, and the f-22 will be "flying blind". if it turns on its radar, immediately it will see countless missiles screeching towards it...

and ANYWAY, it is NOT INVISIBLE TO RADAR TO BEGIN WITH!!!

The F-22 forces a potential enemy to use more assets in trying to detect it, much less track it. Assets that would have been used else where if it were a conventional plane that was attacking. It ties up more enemy capability so that it leaves other areas vulnerable. The F-22 is not a war winner by itself. It is part of a combined arms team. If you look at recent USAF combat histories, fighter sweep is just a minor component.

That theory you posted is very good on paper. But in an actual conflict radar sights will be the very first targets on the list, will be heavily jammed, and decoyed, attacked by cruise missiles, etc. Furthermore, the radar operator will most likely concentrate on the conventional planes that they see on their radars than "disturbances" from a reciever several miles away. Stealth does not work on the vaccum.

USAF exercises with the F-22 has developed a very good tactic, where 1 F-22 flies 30-40 miles ahead of another. The F-22 behind turns on its radar and gives the info on the F-22 ahead. Enemy planes see this radar on the passive systems and move in to intercept. When the planes get in range of the AMRAAM of the first F-22, it fires using targetting provided by the F-22 behind. Since the enemy planes still think that the actual F-22 is still 30-40 miles further, they believe that they are safe until their receiver warns them that they have been acquired by the Amraam.

chopsticks said:
i didn't say that f-22 is all useless... it does have certain advantages of course and it IS a good plane.. but its not all invincible if u know what i mean...

what i meant was, with enough J-10s and J-11s, f-22s can still be defeated.. especially within Chinese territory... and not too difficult to be done. correct me if im wrong but f-22 isnt even navalised yet.. and they have a good reason not to be.. (yet)



PS: btw i think eurofighter (typhoon) is a cool-looking plane :)
I don't think the USN has the money to navalize the F-22. They are betting on the F-35C to supplement the Super hornets.

You are correct that the F-22 is not invincible, but it doesn't fly alone. In a fighter sweep it is supported by AWACS, ELINT, SEAD aircraft, and other airsuperiority fighters (F-15C). It has taken on F-15c that out number it 5 to one and won by itself. It will be deadlier as part of an air package.

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F-22 Raptor Stealth
A quick look at the F-22 reveals an adherence to fundamental shaping principles of a stealthy design. The leading and trailing edges of the wing and tail have identical sweep angles (a design technique called planform alignment). The fuselage and canopy have sloping sides. The canopy seam, bay doors, and other surface interfaces are sawtoothed. The vertical tails are canted. The engine face is deeply hidden by a serpentine inlet duct and weapons are carried internally.

Advances in low-observable technologies provide significantly improved survivability and lethality against air-to-air and surface-to-air threats. The F-22's combination of reduced observability and supercruise accentuates the advantage of surprise in a tactical environment. The most publicized and most revolutionary technology for aircraft is stealth. Stealth makes an object become very difficult to detect by sensors such as radar, heat seekers (infrared), sound detectors and even the human eye. While not invisible, the F-22's radar cross section is comparable to the radar cross sections of birds and bees. Compared to other current fighters, the F-22 is much more difficult to detect.

To make a stealthy aircraft, designers had to consider five key ingredients: reducing the imprint on radar screens, muffling noise, turning down the heat of its infrared picture, stifling radio transmissions and making the plane less visible. The leading and trailing edges of the wing and tail have identical sweep angles (a design technique called planform alignment). The fuselage and canopy have sloping sides. The canopy seam, bay doors and other surface interfaces are saw-toothed. The vertical tails are canted. The engine face is deeply hidden by a serpentine inlet duct and weapons are carried internally.

The F-22 represents a significant design evolution beyond the highly successful F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter, with performance not achievable by today's front-line fighters. Low observable, or stealth, technology has advanced to the point where conventional aerodynamic configurations can be made incorporating low observability without compromising aerodynamic performance or increasing costs significantly. Design development risk was greatly reduced by the performance demonstrated in the dem/val program where angle of attack attitudes up to 60 degrees were flown. The validity of the low observability features of the F-22's design were confirmed by full-scale pole model testing.

Low observability is achieved by a range of measures. The F-22 employs planform shaping and faceting with blended facet boundaries, the latter a necessary concession to high performance aerodynamics. This is apparent in the shape of the nose, the fuselage sides about the inlets and engines, and the upper forward fuselage. Lockheed/B/GD used serrated edges extensively, as with the F-117A, to control the returns from panel boundaries, this is very visible on the undercarriage and weapon bay doors. The planform results in a multiple lobe design, as the boundaries of the major surfaces are not parallel with respect to each other. Planform return lobe structure is defined by the radiation pattern lobes resulting from surface wave reflections which occur at the leading and trailing edges of the airframe's major surfaces. The objective of lobing is to concentrate this unavoidable radar return into specific directions so as to minimise frontal/aft/beam aspect return and maximise scintillation in the direction of the lobe. Scintillation is a measure of how rapidly the size of the return varies with angle, the greater this variation, the more difficult a target is to track. The lower the number of lobes and the narrower the lobes, the lower the probability of detecting any return.

Radar absorbant materials, or RAM is applied sparingly on the F-22 airframe as opposed to the entire airframe on the F-117. This is because designers have incorporated curves on crucial surfaces and edges, which lessens the need for RAM. For example, new ceramic-matrix RAM is utilized on the engine exhaust nozzles to reduce radar and IR signatures, and a greater amount of wide-band structural RAM is used on the wing edges. The interesting shape of the radome on the F-22 reflects radar signals at all frequencies except the precise wavelengths emitted from the F-22. This can be attributed to the radome's low bandpass type.

To apply the complex system of paints and coatings necessary to meet the F-22's stringent radar cross section (RCS) requirements takes not only state-of-the-art equipment and hands-on technicians, but also a wide-ranging support system. A new type of paint, or topcoat, increases the F-22 Raptor's stealthiness by reducing its vulnerability to infrared threats. To meet F-22 requirements, Boeing developed the topcoat to protect the aircraft against a broad range of wavelengths. The new paint replaces conventional topcoats, performing all the required environmentally protective functions while also reducing the aircraft's vulnerability to detection. The topcoat does not add to the F-22's weight, and provides performance enhancement at a very modest cost. It is applied in a two-tone camouflage design, patterned after the F-15 "Mod-Eagle" paint scheme. Development of the new topcoat began during the early stages of the F-22 program. Since that time, a small team at Boeing in Seattle has worked to refine the paint and improve its application characteristics in a production-level environment. Technicians at Lockheed Martin painted the first few aircraft by hand, however, robotic application is planned for future Raptors, including Raptor 04, which is scheduled to fly this summer. The topcoat application for each Raptor is expected to take one to two days.

Another important feature of the F-22's stealth characteristics is the new low-RCS air data system. This system uses four ports distributed along the forward fuselage to reduce emission control (EMCON). In addition, the F-22 is the first fighter aircraft to include a completely frameless canopy. This eliminates RCS reflections from the windshield arc without compromising structural integrity.

Fundamentals of Stealth Design

Design for low observability, and specifically for low radar cross section (RCS), began almost as soon as radar was invented. The predominantly wooden deHavilland Mosquito was one of the first aircraft to be designed with this capability in mind.

Against World War II radar systems, that approach was fairly successful, but it would not be appropriate today. First, wood and, by extension, composite materials, are not transparent to radar, although they may be less reflective than metal; and second, the degree to which they are transparent merely amplifies the components that are normally hidden by the outer skin. These include engines, fuel, avionics packages, electrical and hydraulic circuits, and people.

In the late 1950s, radar absorbing materials were incorporated into the design of otherwise conventionally designed aircraft. These materials had two purposes: to reduce the aircraft cross section against specific threats, and to isolate multiple antennas on aircraft to prevent cross talk. The Lockheed U-2 reconnaissance airplane is an example in this category.

By the 1960s, sufficient analytical knowledge had disseminated into the design community that the gross effects of different shapes and components could be assessed. It was quickly realized that a flat plate at right angles to an impinging radar wave has a very large radar signal, and a cavity, similarly located, also has a large return.

Thus, the inlet and exhaust systems of a jet aircraft would be expected to be dominant contributors to radar cross section in the nose on and tail on viewing directions, and the vertical tail dominates the side on signature.

Airplanes could now be designed with appropriate shaping and materials to reduce their radar cross sections, but as good numerical design procedures were not available, it was unlikely that a completely balanced design would result In other words, there was always likely to be a component that dominated the return in a particular direction. This was the era of the Lockheed SR-71 'Blackbird'.

Ten years later, numerical methods were developed that allowed a quantitative assessment of contributions from different parts of a body. It was thus possible to design an aircraft with a balanced radar cross section and to minimize the return from dominant scatterers. This approach led to the design of the Lockheed F-117A and Northrop B-2 stealth aircraft.

Since then there has been continuous improvement in both analytical and experimental methods, particularly with respect to integration of shaping and materials. At the same time, the counter stealth faction is developing an increasing understanding of its requirements, forcing the stealth community into another round of improvements. The message is, that with all the dramatic improvements of the last two decades, there is little evidence of leveling off in capability.


Radar Cross Section Fundamentals

There are two basic approaches to passive radar cross section reduction: shaping to minimize backscatter, and coating for energy absorption and cancellation. Both of these approaches have to be used coherently in aircraft design to achieve the required low observable levels over the appropriate frequency range in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Shaping

There is a tremendous advantage to positioning surfaces so that the radar wave strikes them at close to tangential angles and far from right angles to edges, as will now be illustrated.

To a first approximation, when the diameter of a sphere is significantly larger than the radar wavelength, its radar cross section is equal to its geometric frontal area.

The return of a one-square-meter sphere is compared to that from a one-meter-square plate at different look angles. One case to consider is a rotation of the plate from normal incidence to a shallow angle, with the radar beam at right angles to a pair of edges. The other is with the radar beam at 45 degrees to the edges. The frequency is selected so that the wavelength is about 1/10 of the length of the plate, in this case very typical of acquisition radars on surface to air missile systems.

At normal incidence, the flat plate acts like a mirror, and its return is 30 decibels (dB) above (or 1,000 times) the return from the sphere. If we now rotate the plate about one edge so that the edge is always normal to the incoming wave, we find that the cross section drops by a factor of 1,000, equal to that of the sphere, when the look angle reaches 30 degrees off normal to the plate.

As the angle is increased, the locus of maxima falls by about another factor Of 50, for a total change of 50,000 from the normal look angle.

Now if you go back to the normal incidence case and rotate the plate about a diagonal relative to the incoming wave, there is a remarkable difference. In this case, the cross section drops by 30 dB when the plate is only eight degrees off normal, and drops another 40 dB by the time the plate is at a shallow angle to the incoming radar beam. This is a total change in radar cross section of 10,000,000!

From this, it would seem that it is fairly easy to decrease the radar cross section substantially by merely avoiding obviously high-return shapes and attitude angles.

However, multiple-reflection cases have not yet been looked at, which change the situation considerably. It is fairly obvious that energy aimed into a long, narrow, closed cavity, which is a perfect reflector internally, will bounce back in the general direction of its source. Furthermore, the shape of the cavity downstream of the entrance clearly does not influence this conclusion.

However, the energy reflected from a straight duct will be reflected in one or two bounces, while that from a curved duct will require four or five bounces. It can be imagined that with a little skill, the number of bounces can be increased significantly without sacrificing aerodynamic performance. For example, a cavity might be designed with a high-cross-sectional aspect ratio to maximize the length-to-height ratio. If we can attenuate the signal to some extent with each bounce, then clearly there is a significant advantage to a multi-bounce design. The SR-71 inlet follows these design practices.

However, there is a little more to the story than just the so called ray tracing approach.

When energy strikes a plate that is smooth compared to wavelength, it does not reflect totally in the optical approximation sense, i.e., the energy is not confined to a reflected wave at a complementary angle to the incoming wave.

The radiated energy, in fact, takes a pattern like a typical reflected wave structure. The width of the main forward scattered spike is proportional to the ratio of the wavelength to the dimension of the reradiating surface, as are the magnitudes of the secondary and tertiary spikes. The classical optical approximation applies when this ratio approaches zero. Thus, the backscatter - the energy radiated directly back to the transmitter increases as the wavelength goes up, or the frequency decreases.

When designing a cavity for minimum return, it is important to balance the forward scatter associated with ray tracing with the backscatter from interactions with the first surfaces. Clearly, an accurate calculation of the total energy returned to the transmitter is very complicated, and generally has to be done on a supercomputer.

Coatings and Absorbers

It is fairly clear that although surface alignment is very important for external surfaces and inlet and exhaust edges, the return from the inside of a cavity is heavily dependent on attenuating materials. It is noted that the radar-frequency range of interest covers between two and three orders of magnitude. Permeability and dielectric constant are two properties that are closely associated with the effectivity of an attenuating material. They both vary considerably with frequency in different ways for different materials. Also, for a coating to be effective, it should have a thickness that is close to a quarter wavelength at the frequency of interest.

High Temperature Coatings

Reduction of radar cross section of engine nozzles is also very important, and is complicated by high material temperatures. The electromagnetic design requirements for coatings are not different from those for low temperatures, but structural integrity is a much bigger issue.

Jet Wakes

The driver determining radar return from a jet wake is the ionization present. Return from resistive particles, such as carbon, is seldom a significant factor. It Is important in calculating the return from an ionized wake to use nonequilibrium mathematics, particularly for medium and high altitude cases.

The very strong ion density dependency on maximum gas temperature quickly leads to the conclusion that the radar return from the jet wake of an engine running in dry power is insignificant, while that from an afterburning wake could be dominant.

Component Design

When the basic aircraft signature is reduced to a very low level, detail design becomes very important. Access panel and door edges, for example, have the potential to be major contributors to radar cross section unless measures are taken to suppress them.

Based on the discussion of simple flat plates, it is clear that it is generally unsatisfactory to have a door edge at right angles to the direction of flight. This would result in a noticeable signal in a nose on aspect. Thus, conventional rectangular doors and access panels are unacceptable.

The solution is not only to sweep the panel edges, but to align those edges with other major edges on the aircraft.

The pilot's head, complete with helmet, is a major source of radar return. It is augmented by the bounce path returns associated with internal bulkheads and frame members. The solution is to design the cockpit so that its external shape conforms to good low radar cross section design rules, and then plate the glass with a film similar to that used for temperature control in commercial buildings.

Here, the requirements are more stringent: it should pass at least 85% of the visible energy and reflect essentially all of the radar energy. At the same time, a pilot would prefer not to have noticeable instrument-panel reflection during night flying.

On an unstable, fly by wire aircraft, it is extremely important to have redundant sources of aerodynamic data. These must be very accurate with respect to flow direction, and they must operate ice free at all times. Static and total pressure probes have been used, but they clearly represent compromises with stealth requirements. Several quite different techniques are in various stages of development.

On board antennas and radar systems are a major potential source of high radar visibility for two reasons. One is that it is obviously difficult to hide something that is designed to transmit with very high efficiency, so the so called in band radar cross section is liable to be significant. The other is that even if this problem is solved satisfactorily, the energy emitted by these systems can normally be readily detected. The work being done to reduce these signatures cannot be described here.

Infrared Radiation

There are two significant sources of infrared radiation from air breathing propulsion systems: hot parts and jet wakes. The fundamental variables available for reducing radiation are temperature and emissivity, and the basic tool available is line of sight masking.

Recently some interesting progress has been made in directed energy, particularly for multiple bounce situations, but that subject will not be discussed further here. Emissivity can be a double edged sword, particularly inside a duct.

While a low emissivity surface will reduce the emitted energy, it will also enhance reflected energy that may be coming from a hotter internal region. Thus, a careful optimization must be made to determine the preferred emissivity pattern inside a jet engine exhaust pipe.

This pattern must be played against the frequency range available to detectors, which typically covers a band from one to 12 microns.

The short wavelengths are particularly effective at high temperatures, while the long wavelengths are most effective at typical ambient atmospheric temperatures. The required emissivity pattern as a function of both frequency and spatial dispersion having been determined, the next issue is how to make materials that fit the bill.

The first inclination of the infrared coating designer is to throw some metal flakes into a transparent binder. Coming up with a transparent binder over the frequency range of interest is not easy, and the radar coating man probably won’t like the effects of the metal particles on his favorite observable.

The next move is usually to come up with a multi layer material, where the same cancellation approach that was discussed earlier regarding radar suppressant coatings is used. The dimensions now are in angstroms rather than millimeters.

The big push at present is in moving from metal layers in the films to metal oxides for radar cross section compatibility. Getting the required performance as a function of frequency is not easy, and it is a significant feat to get down to an emissivity of 0.1, particularly over a sustained frequency range. Thus, the biggest practical ratio of emissivities is liable to be one order of magnitude.

Everyone can recognize that all of this discussion is meaningless if engines continue to deposit carbon (one of the highest emissivity materials known) on duct walls. For the infrared coating to be effective, it is not sufficient to have a very low particulate ratio in the engine exhaust, but to have one that is essentially zero.

Carbon buildup on hot engine parts is a cumulative situation, and there are very few bright, shiny parts inside exhaust nozzles after a number of hours of operation. For this reason alone, it is likely that emissivity control will predominantly be employed on surfaces other than those exposed to engine exhaust gases, i.e., inlets and aircraft external parts.

The other available variable is temperature. This, in principle, gives a great deal more opportunity for radiation reduction than emissivity, because of the large exponential dependence. The general equation for emitted radiation is that it varies with the product of emissivity and temperature to the fourth power.

However, this is a great simplification, because it does not account for the frequency shift of radiation with temperature. In the frequency range at which most simple detectors work (one to five microns), and at typical hot-metal temperatures, the exponential dependency will be typically near eight rather than four, and so at a particular frequency corresponding to a specific detector, the radiation will be proportional to the product of the emissivity and temperature to the eighth power. It is fairly clear that a small reduction in temperature can have a much greater effect than any reasonably anticipated reduction in emissivity.

The third approach is masking. This is clearly much easier to do when the majority of the power is taken off by the turbine, as in a propjet or helicopter application, than when the jet provides the basic propulsive force.

The former community has been using this approach to infrared suppression for many years, but it is only recently that the jet-propulsion crowd has tackled this problem. The Lockheed F 117A and the Northrop B 2 both use a similar approach of masking to prevent any hot parts being visible in the lower hemisphere.

In summary, infrared radiation should be tackled by a combination of temperature reduction and masking, although there is no point in doing these past the point where the hot parts are no longer the dominant terms in the radiation equation.

The main body of the airplane has its own radiation, heavily dependent on speed and altitude, and the jet plume can be a most significant factor, particularly in afterburning operation. Strong cooperation between engine and airframe manufacturers in the early stages of design is extremely important. The choice of engine bypass ratio, for example, should not be made solely on the basis of performance, but on a combination of that and survivability for maximum system effectiveness.

The jet-wake radiation follows the same laws as the engine hot parts, a very strong dependency on temperature and a multiplicative factor of emissivity. Air has a very low emissivity, carbon particles have a high broadband emissivity, and water vapor emits in very specific bands.

Infrared seekers have mixed feelings about water vapor wavelengths, because, while they help in locating jet plumes, they hinder in terms of the general attenuation due to moisture content in the atmosphere. There is no reason, however, why smart seekers shouldn’t be able to make an instant decision about whether conditions are favorable for using water-vapor bands for detection.

Summary

The low signatures achieved by modern special-purpose aircraft are due to a combination of shaping, material, material selection, and careful attention to detail design. Budgeting of component signatures across a wide range of frequencies and attitude angles is mandatory. just as in a blackout, the game can be given away by one chink of light.

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AN/APG-77 Radar

The AN/APG-77 radar is the F-22’s primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. A Northrop Grumman-led joint venture with Raytheon is developing the active-element electronically scanned array radar. Northrop Grumman is also responsible for the radar sensor design, software, and systems integration.

The AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array that features a separate transmitter and receiver for each of the antenna's several thousand, finger-sized radiating elements. Most of the mechanical parts common to other radars have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable. This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electromagnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F-22's air dominance mission. The radar is key to the F-22's integrated avionics and sensor capabilities. It will provide pilots with detailed information about multiple threats before the adversary's radar ever detects the F-22.

The AN/APG-77 radar a novel type of electronically scanned phased array. In what is likely to be the most advanced airborne radar in the world, individual transmit and receive modules are located behind each element of the radar array. The transmit function of the solid-state microwave modules supplants the traveling wave tubes used in prior radars like the APQ-164. The active, electronically scanned array (ESA) configuration has a wider transmit bandwidth while requiring significantly less volume and prime power. The system represents about half the weight of an equivalent passive ESA design. Each of the hundreds of individual solid-state devices generates only small amounts of power, but the aggregate for the entire array is substantial.

The F-22 s APG-77 electronically scanned array antenna is composed of several thousand transmit/receive modules, circulators, radiators and manifolds assembled into subarrays and then integrated into a complete array. The baseline design used thousands of hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects to make the numerous radio frequency, digital, and direct current connections between the components and manifolds that make up the subarray. Northrop Grumman Corporation, of Baltimore, MD, has developed an improved manufacturing process for F-22 aircraft radar components. The new process could result in a cost avoidance of nearly $87 million on the planned production run for the aircraft. By replacing the hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects with automated ribbon bond interconnects, the first pass yield of the subarray assembly has been vastly improved.

The AN/APG-77 radar antenna is a elliptical, active electronically scanned antenna array of 2000 transmitter/receive modules which provides agility, low radar cross section and wide bandwidth. The radar is able to sweep 120 degrees of airspace instantaneously. In comparison to the F-15 Strike Eagle's APG-70 radar takes 14 seconds to scan that amount of airspace. The APG-77 is capable of performing this feat by electronically forming multiple radar beams to rapidly search the airspace.

The system exhibits a very low radar cross section, supporting the F-22's stealthy design. Reliability of the all-solid-state system is expected to be substantially better than the already highly reliable F-16 radar, with MTBF predicted at more than 450 hours.

The APG-77 radar offers significant advantages over previous combat radars. Among its most attractive benefits is the integration of agile beam steering. This feature allows a single APG-77 radar to carry out multiple functions, such as searching, tracking, and engaging targets simultaneously. Agile beam steering also enables the radar to concurrently search multiple portions of airspace, while allowing continued tracking of priority targets.

The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.
The F-22 and its APG-77 radar will also be able to employ better Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). This is accomplished by forming fine beams and by generating a high resolution image of the target by using Inverse Synthetic Aperture radar (ISAR) processing. ISAR uses Doppler shifts caused by rotational changes in the targets position to create a 3D map of the target. The target provides the Doppler shift and not the aircraft illuminating the target. SAR is when the aircraft provides the Doppler shift. The pilot can compare the target with an actual picture radar image stored in the F-22's data base.
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Re: J-xx

idont, did u just quadruple post? yes he did, but i think that you should let us, mods, do our jobs...

yes, we like the info on the f-22, but perhaps if u liked to do some reasearch on russian equivalents, and its much less impressive. and this is not the f-22 thread. this love affar wit f-22 has to end!!

the mig-1.44 and su-47 have many of the same features as f-22, and some things it doesnt. i u think about it, things such as tvc, hms, pdr, were all fitted on russian fighters years ago.

the j-xx should be comming out by a little after 2010. chinas quickly closing in on america. if russia had more money, theyd be ahead. so stop with the "f-22 domintates" bulls#$5t.
 
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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Re: J-xx

MIGleader said:
idont, did u just quadruple post? not allowed!

yes, we like the info on the f-22, but perhaps if u liked to do some reasearch on russian equivalents, and its much less impressive. and this is not the f-22 thread. this love affar wit f-22 has to end!!

the mig-1.44 and su-47 have many of the same features as f-22, and some things it doesnt. i u think about it, things such as tvc, hms, pdr, were all fitted on russian fighters years ago.

the j-xx should be comming out by a little after 2010. chinas quickly closing in on america. if russia had more money, theyd be ahead. so stop with the "f-22 domintates" bulls#$5t.




Forward swept wing.
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Thrust vectoring
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Mig 1.44 and the S-37 are dead. It will not come back. End of story.
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Both the 1.44 and S-37 are experimental platforms it is hoped will lead to a new heavy fighter. However, the necessary military avionics and weapons systems have yet to materialize. Unlike the S-37, the MFI has been designed to fill the roles of air-superiority fighter, interceptor, strike aircraft and reconnaissance platform, and a multi-channel fire-control system is envisaged that will be capable of engaging multiple targets and directing several missiles simultaneously. For now, it is supposed to be capable of carrying all current air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Sukhoi's successful flight prompted Mikoyan to resume work on the 1.44 project and its first flight was expected by October 1999 with Anatoly Kvotchur at the controls.
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Re: J-xx

IDonT said:
Forward swept wing.
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Thrust vectoring
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Mig 1.44 and the S-37 are dead. It will not come back. End of story.
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Both the 1.44 and S-37 are experimental platforms it is hoped will lead to a new heavy fighter. However, the necessary military avionics and weapons systems have yet to materialize. Unlike the S-37, the MFI has been designed to fill the roles of air-superiority fighter, interceptor, strike aircraft and reconnaissance platform, and a multi-channel fire-control system is envisaged that will be capable of engaging multiple targets and directing several missiles simultaneously. For now, it is supposed to be capable of carrying all current air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Sukhoi's successful flight prompted Mikoyan to resume work on the 1.44 project and its first flight was expected by October 1999 with Anatoly Kvotchur at the controls.

for the last time, this is the J-XX thread. so if all u can talk about is the f-22 and the superority of american fighters, dont post.

back to j-xx...
the aircraft might employ technologies demonstrated by the worlds existing 5th gen aircraft. i can invision a design fairly similar to the f-22, powerd by al-41s. as with all chiense designs, it would be very manuverable, with twin fins, and lerx swept back wings. the engines may be underslung or side mounted, depending on how the al-41 fits into the airframe. avionics will be indegedous, and would support weapons such as the sd-10, r-77, or possibly lgbs such as lgb-250 or ls-500j. the radar would have to be an indegedous radar, perhpaps a development of the kjl-3. china would not use foreign radar because then the j-xx could only fire the foreign weapons, or the chinese migh have to give up the sd-10 launch code.
helmet sights, ecm pods, and targeting pods inhereted(not nessacerily copied) from china's su-27s and 30s would be used on the fighter.
the aircraft would come out aroung 2010-2015. a great deal of experience learned from the j-10 and j-11 projects would be available to chinese engineers. i dont nkow how far chinas gotten with stealth shaping and radar absobing paint, but russian assistance could always be sought for these areas.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Re: J-xx

MIGleader said:
for the last time, this is the J-XX thread. so if all u can talk about is the f-22 and the superority of american fighters, dont post.

back to j-xx...
the aircraft might employ technologies demonstrated by the worlds existing 5th gen aircraft. i can invision a design fairly similar to the f-22, powerd by al-41s. as with all chiense designs, it would be very manuverable, with twin fins, and lerx swept back wings. the engines may be underslung or side mounted, depending on how the al-41 fits into the airframe. avionics will be indegedous, and would support weapons such as the sd-10, r-77, or possibly lgbs such as lgb-250 or ls-500j. the radar would have to be an indegedous radar, perhpaps a development of the kjl-3. china would not use foreign radar because then the j-xx could only fire the foreign weapons, or the chinese migh have to give up the sd-10 launch code.
helmet sights, ecm pods, and targeting pods inhereted(not nessacerily copied) from china's su-27s and 30s would be used on the fighter.
the aircraft would come out aroung 2010-2015. a great deal of experience learned from the j-10 and j-11 projects would be available to chinese engineers. i dont nkow how far chinas gotten with stealth shaping and radar absobing paint, but russian assistance could always be sought for these areas.


Ok fine.

2010-2015 is not very reliable time frame for it to enter service. No airframe has yet been decided, no engines, no avionics, etc. To put things into perspective, the J-10 started in the early 80's is still not yet in FULL active service in 2005. That is 20+ years of developement. The same with the Raptor, Eurofighter, and Rafale development programs.

If we used the Russian 5th gen aircraft as the base, we can guess on what its capabilities will be.
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Development of the MFI called for super sonic performance, supermaneuverability and stealth characteristics. The first "S:" sverkhzvuk, mandated supersonic cruising capability during combat, which has to be attained without afterburning, and the ability to sustain high g-loads during supersonic flight. This also necessitates a faster fire-control system because reaction times will be shorter. Given Russia's enormous geographic size, the ability to respond and be on station quickly, as well as operate effectively in regions where airfields are sparse, is of paramount importance.

Supermaneuverability calls for the aircraft to be capable of sustained controlled flight at angles of attack (AoAs) of between 60 deg and 70 deg. Needless to say, such a requirement makes great demands aerodynamically as well as on the fire-control system but is deemed essential for modern air combat, as the fighter should be capable of attacking a target from any position, including behind. One solution is thrust vectoring. Although a beyond-visual-range (BVR) attack is always the preferred method for a heavy fighter designed for long- and medium-distance missions, close-in air combat will be a reality on those occasions when BVR has not achieved the desired result.

Judged to be third in order of importance, stealth technology will be employed in the MFI only when it will not compromise the attribute previously mentioned.
 

coolieno99

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

IDonT said:
hey mig,
China at this moment cannot design, build, and field a F-15 level fighter on its own.
... etc ...

I think you're right. China is unable to do the simple things. It can only do the difficult things. China can send a man to outer space ( 1 of only 3 countries able to do so). China can send a communication satellite into geosynchronous orbit, 20,000 miles above the earth ( just a handful of countries able to do so) using a totally cryogenic third stage(LH/LOX)....:coffee:
 
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