J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread

[Arienai]

I don't see how J-35A can still be easier to produce now that they've ramped up J-20 to 100 a year and is clearly still increasing the number.
J-20A production process likely would've incorporated all the latest production advancement ideas.

I'm sure they'll try to incorporate the lastest improvement as much as they could on the J20, but there are many things you can't simply rebuild from scratch at this stage of it's production. J35 was designed to have less parts in total (I'm sure the old thread has articles on this topic, such as producing the main frame and the wings as a single part and etc) thus easier and faster to produce than J20 which wasn't designed this way. You can improve the electronics and softwares for the new batches of J20 rather easily, but drastically changing how the aircraft is produced requires so much retooling on the manufactoring side and is simply not an option if they want to keep the current production rate.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but to ramp up the speed again takes time. Maybe they would wait till J35A's prodcution rate to mature before making this kind of change, or maybe they won't, as the current production rate is already quite impressive for a heavy weight.

And again, being easier to produce is only one of the possible reasons they chose the J35A. Back when CJDBY was still alive there was a great post on the importance of "frontline fighter jets". Just a quick summary of what I could remember: in a full scale war, you would want a kind of jet that's easier to maintain to place at bases closer to the frontline, both for the faster reaction time and for handling the (usually) less optimal conditions of these bases. I do believe J20 would still be the ACE for PLAAF, as it would have bigger range, faster speed and better supersonic maneuverability, but there's a reason why F16, MiG29 and J10 exist along side F15, Su27 and J11. J35A should be the 5th gen version of these. Maybe it has some other advantages compared to J20, such as better stealth (as the just came out interview says), but even if it doesn't, a jet like this still has its value.

 

[gelgoog]

J35A makes sense if it meaningfully differs from J20A. Primarily, if it's meaningfully cheaper to run or to procure than the J20. We won't know if that's the case for, likely, years to come.

The loss in capabilities won't be worth the reduction in price. That is what the Russians learned with the MiG-29 vs Su-27.
You will have a smaller lower power radar and less payload.

 

[Arienai]

Yankee said in their new podcast today that this J35A is a production unit. It will gets its serial and assign to a unit right after the airshow.

 

[Deino]

Yankee said in their new podcast today that this J35A is a production unit. It will gets its serial and assign to a unit right after the airshow.

Honestly, I think this is very much unlikely … and would totally turn my understanding upside-down!

I‘m well aware that we don’t know everything but we are not that much behind and at least as it seems the first J-35A indeed flew first only in September 2023, even for an almost mature design based on FC-31 & J-35 testing, the time from maiden flight to service entry cannot be just 1 year plus a few months.

Either we miss something completely, or there are at least 5 or more prototypes flying since much longer or it is nonsense.

No country - even the US with all their fast experience especially in latest generation and stealth aircraft - can start serial production for operational units after only a few months! That simply does not work.

 

[Totoro]

The loss in capabilities won't be worth the reduction in price. That is what the Russians learned with the MiG-29 vs Su-27.
You will have a smaller lower power radar and less payload.

Maybe, maybe not. But that would also imply that F-35 is not really worth it over F-22. That the price difference between f35 and f22 (lets say F22 today would cost equivalent of 170 million) is there almost purely due to numbers produced difference and not due to actual cost and usage difference if both planes would be made in same numbers.

It's perfectly possible that indeed it does not make financial sense to use somewhat smaller and cheaper planes. But i've seen no decisive indication of that being true.

DoD gave an apples to apples 2016 comparison in operating costs for mature products, stating that F15 costs some 22 000, while F16 costs 8300 per hour. when flown for 30 years, 200 hours per year, that amounts to some 82 million dollars of difference. Roughy the cost of one F16 to buy for the DoD.

I wish i remember how many su27 and mig29 were made by 1990 but i forgot those figures. There were some magazines providing exact tallies, though.

 

[CannedFish]

I don't see how J-35A can still be easier to produce now that they've ramped up J-20 to 100 a year and is clearly still increasing the number.
J-20A production process likely would've incorporated all the latest production advancement ideas.

Will they incorporate the J-35A's smaller actuators? Or will it be/is too late?
Also are the J-35As using electro-hydraulic actuators?

Comparisons (cropped a bit 'cause too large)

View attachment 138346View attachment 138347

 

[Nilou]

Yankee said in their new podcast today that this J35A is a production unit. It will gets its serial and assign to a unit right after the airshow.

That is very fast. Goes to show the PLA still has tricks up their sleeves. Even we are far behind on what is actually happening in China.

The loss in capabilities won't be worth the reduction in price. That is what the Russians learned with the MiG-29 vs Su-27.
You will have a smaller lower power radar and less payload.

This fighter jet allows China to have even more fifth gen fighters at its disposal. There is nothing wrong with acquiring it. As it stands, J-20 production is maxed out, the J-35 will allow both the PLAAF and PLAN to aquire more combat power over the coming years, which is nothing to complain about. Cost savings are only a bonus.

The J-35 also allows China to have a credible 5th gen fighter to market to other countries. J-20 is clearly off limits, but the J-10 is not winning many orders. Eurofighter and Rafale are still winning orders, not to mention the F-35. J-35 is the only viable response on the export market. Development of these aircraft take many years, up to a decade.

One more thing, the development of this aircraft ensures Shenyang retains the ability to develop competitive fighter planes. We would not want a situation similar to Lockheed's virtual monopoly over 5th generation fighters in the USA.

 

[Arienai]

Honestly, I think this is very much unlikely … and would totally turn my understanding upside-down!

I‘m well aware that we don’t know everything but we are not that much behind and at least as it seems the first J-35A indeed flew first only in September 2023, even for an almost mature design based on FC-31 & J-35 testing, the time from maiden flight to service entry cannot be just 1 year plus a few months.

Either we miss something completely, or there are at least 5 or more prototypes flying since much longer or it is nonsense.

No country - even the US with all their fast experience especially in latest generation and stealth aircraft - can start serial production for operational units after only a few months! That simply does not work.

Can confirm he said that (I'm listen to it right now) but won't confirm what he said is the truth

But due to his credibility so far it could be true. Maybe it shows that it's already quite mature after years of testing from the FC31 demonstrators and the naval version J35

 

[AndrewS]

Maybe, maybe not. But that would also imply that F-35 is not really worth it over F-22. That the price difference between f35 and f22 (lets say F22 today would cost equivalent of 170 million) is there almost purely due to numbers produced difference and not due to actual cost and usage difference if both planes would be made in same numbers.

It's perfectly possible that indeed it does not make financial sense to use somewhat smaller and cheaper planes. But i've seen no decisive indication of that being true.

It's not about just capability. It's cost to perform the mission.

Let's take CAP over the Chinese mainland and for missions closeby such as Taiwan or Korea
A J-20 has way more range/fuel than is necessary. A smaller J-35 should work just as well as a bigger J-20

So it doesn't matter than the J-35 has a worse cost versus capability ratio than the J-20.
The J-35 can still do the same set of missions next to China, presumably for a lower cost than the J-20

 

[AndrewS]

I am quite surprised by this one. Still not sure why we really need to have a PLAAF version of J-35A.

The best reasoning I can come up with are:
1) Supports industrial base with Shenyang AC and keep cost down for both air force and navy
2) Helps provide support for medium sized aeroengine that would both both J-35A and UCAVs
3) Helps with export when your own air force is also buying it.

You get competition between CAC and SAC for fighter buys as well.
That drives down costs and increases improvements