J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread

[Ali Qizilbash]

It's childish reading crazy claims from Pakistan's side about getting access to anything and everything which history has proven to be otherwise. PL-15 sold to Pakistan were indeed export grade. Their longer than expected range was simply not exposed until the conflict. The J-10CE sold was also not the same as the ones in PLAAF. Even physically different antennas.

This topic is being discussed in context of the J-35AE. It's good to sometimes dispell some of the nonsense spread online about access to non-downgraded stuff. This isn't to say China only exports downgraded stuff. That's clearly not the case for ground forces equipment and some naval equipment.

This is what i dislike..... claims from Pakistan side..... what does that mean? Are you equating fucking Fanboys to Govt.

Regarding PL15 this is again my point, Chinese and Pak Govts know what they are trading so it is silly to grovel bout whether is export version .... it's down graded, should not be exported, like arguments.

My post was not restricted to J35 but a general argument/ perception on this forum, which also includes J35.

Regarding whatever Pakhas procured from China is of REQUISITE quality. Good for Pak requirements. Good business for China and Pak.

 

[AndrewS]

Yea, this is just a discussion on framing and choosing the details and granularity in how we assess those details.

On the topic of the J-35AE which apparently means there's an export version of the land based J-35, I think this version is going to differ with the domestic platform significantly when it comes to onboard equipment, software and coating materials. Pakistan is certainly politically the closest and most trusted "ally" that's short of a formal treaty ally. It will likely be treated more preferentially than Arab states with a lot more western/Israeli influence and leaning. We've all heard the talk about Pakistan's current domestic politics but I feel whatever graces Pakistan gives the US are quite a bit more self-serving than people will have us believe ie they are less likely to jump ship than Arab nations when we're talking about potential export orders and securing these fighters.

This platform is just being introduced to PLANAF and PLAAF. It will be serving for decades to come and alongside J-20, it will be the other spearhead fighter and won't be superseded until J-36 and J-50 reach LRIP. Imagine intel leaks from export models just to earn barely some pocket change. In fact unless we're selling to oil rich nations and selling hundreds, it's really not worth exporting at all unless it's a significantly downgraded unit and differing from PLAAF's so much that the American can have their engineers take one apart and just say ... yep that's a fighter and this is also how basic export models are specced out.

At this point one might think why purchase such a fighter. Answer is, it will still be a LO fighter even with no dedicated stealth metamaterials. Just on shaping and internal weapons bay alone (which the Koreans could not give the KF-21) a J-35AE is still going to be the best exportable fighter next to F-35. I'd put money behind a downgraded AE over Su-57 just on radar, ECM/ESM and available export missiles alone. It'll be stealthier too even without the same materials.

The J-35A is not a spearhead fighter for China.

By 2030, there should be about a thousand J-20 in the Chinese Air Force, compared to a few hundred of the J-35A. And the J-20 is the "high" end aircraft of the two fighters.

In the Chinese Navy, the J-35 supposedly has a better radar than the J-35A used by the Chinese Air Force.

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At the Zhuhai Air Show, you can see multiple companies offering stealth materials for sale with glossy brochures and the technical specifications. You can see even Turkey and South Korea developing stealth aircraft.

Stealth materials just aren't that special anymore.

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When faced with an ultimatum, note that the UAE chose Huawei over the offer of 40 F-35.

In Saudi Arabia, we have the PLARF operating the Saudi DF-21 ballistic missiles. A notional F-35A order would presumably have a significant contingent of Chinese maintenance engineers as contractors.

 

[ougoah]

The J-35A is not a spearhead fighter for China.

By 2030, there should be about a thousand J-20 in the Chinese Air Force, compared to a few hundred of the J-35A. And the J-20 is the "high" end aircraft of the two fighters.

In the Chinese Navy, the J-35 supposedly has a better radar than the J-35A used by the Chinese Air Force.

---
At the Zhuhai Air Show, you can see multiple companies offering stealth materials for sale with glossy brochures and the technical specifications. You can see even Turkey and South Korea developing stealth aircraft.

Stealth materials just aren't that special anymore.

---

When faced with an ultimatum, note that the UAE chose Huawei over the offer of 40 F-35.

In Saudi Arabia, we have the PLARF operating the Saudi DF-21 ballistic missiles. A notional F-35A order would presumably have a significant contingent of Chinese maintenance engineers as contractors.

Yes and all this makes the J-35 a spearhead, frontline fighter. It is literally the second best fighter China has in service and will be until 6th gen reach service.

We have PLARF operating Saudi DF-21 for good reason. We won't have PLAAF operating J-35AE. It also won't be difficult for the US to glean intel from PAF J-35s.

Stealth materials are so "unspecial" that only two nations on this planet have proven to have mastered them. TFX is a decade from service and KF-21 as well. We know from Chinese official sources say on video that the engineering and production of metamaterials that are applied to stealth aircraft only exist in the US and China. It hasn't been observed elsewhere and I haven't seen evidence that Russia, Turkey or Korea have applied those. Their fighters and 5th gen prototypes do not appear to have any of that "type" of coating that's apparent on the latest three 5th gen fighters - F35, J35 and J-20. Even the F-22 uses an older generation of material, possibly not even applying metamaterials. It is observably different and then we more or less have Chinese corroboration.

I am referring to stealth materials post F-22. F-117 and B-2 applied different treatments to their F-35. China leapfrogged the earlier generations of materials which were not metamaterial based. Metamaterial science and production currently only has limited application and no other nation has shown ability to produce them.

Particularly starting from the ten minute mark. There was an older vid on metamaterial scientists working in the US returning to China. That was a different context though but all the same. Clear hints are given on how out of reach synthesizing this stuff is. It's as exclusive if not more so than chip fab and lithography machinery.

Giving a piece to the US would expose the level however similar, further or behind it is compared to US equivalents and also how to perhaps overcome.

 

[TK3600]

Back in the day China was selling ZTZ-90, the precursor of ZTZ-99, while not even operating ZTZ-96 itself. Export do not mean worse. It just has to be different. As long not directly leaking sensitive informations PLA themselves use, the export weapon can be superior to Chinese equivalent.

To China technology is not an artifact west treat it as, it is a renewable resource like trees. What is advanced today can be easily surpassed in 5 years.

 

[Black Wolf]

It also won't be difficult for the US to glean intel from PAF J-35s.

These concerns keep surfacing because people still view arms exports through a U.S.-centric lens, where allies are rarely trusted with sensitive tech. But China’s relationship with Pakistan is different built on decades of strategic trust and proven handling of advanced systems.

If China had real concerns about leaks, it wouldn’t even entertain the idea of exporting something like the J-35A. The fact that it’s in discussion shows confidence both in Pakistan’s reliability and in China’s ability to control what needs to be protected.

 

[TK3600]

J-35 is the 4th most advanced fighter in China. US still has F-35 as its best, and no sign of having better ones any time soon.

 

[ougoah]

Back in the day China was selling ZTZ-90, the precursor of ZTZ-99, while not even operating ZTZ-96 itself. Export do not mean worse. It just has to be different. As long not directly leaking sensitive informations PLA themselves use, the export weapon can be superior to Chinese equivalent.

To China technology is not an artifact west treat it as, it is a renewable resource like trees. What is advanced today can be easily surpassed in 5 years.

No one is saying export is always worse. I've made that clear in plenty of posts and given my own examples. The nuance is that exported higher tier equipment is almost always worse or restricted in some manner so as to not provide certain capabilities for example increased range of missiles or to have a separation in case of intelligence gathering efforts from capable opfor.

Yes China treats tech much more loosely than the west. But at the same time, China does not have as tight control as the west. China can't replicate how the US controls antique F-16 in PAF. PAF is free to use J-10CE however they like and there are likely no Chinese officers keeping 24/7 guard on these Chinese sourced aircraft in PAF. The US used to have 24/7 observation and control of PAF F-16s. They may still do so despite it being electronically an antique now.

 

[ougoah]

These concerns keep surfacing because people still view arms exports through a U.S.-centric lens, where allies are rarely trusted with sensitive tech. But China’s relationship with Pakistan is different built on decades of strategic trust and proven handling of advanced systems.

If China had real concerns about leaks, it wouldn’t even entertain the idea of exporting something like the J-35A. The fact that it’s in discussion shows confidence both in Pakistan’s reliability and in China’s ability to control what needs to be protected.

Well to be honest we don't know if Pakistan is receiving J-35. Even if it were, perhaps China should consider these concerns. It has little experience in handling this unlike the west.

J-35 is the 4th most advanced fighter in China. US still has F-35 as its best, and no sign of having better ones any time soon.

This is not true. You seem to be counting prototypes.

 

[Black Wolf]

No one is saying export is always worse. I've made that clear in plenty of posts and given my own examples. The nuance is that exported higher tier equipment is almost always worse or restricted in some manner so as to not provide certain capabilities for example increased range of missiles or to have a separation in case of intelligence gathering efforts from capable opfor.

Yes China treats tech much more loosely than the west. But at the same time, China does not have as tight control as the west. China can't replicate how the US controls antique F-16 in PAF. PAF is free to use J-10CE however they like and there are likely no Chinese officers keeping 24/7 guard on these Chinese sourced aircraft in PAF. The US used to have 24/7 observation and control of PAF F-16s. They may still do so despite it being electronically an antique now.

Fair point on nuance, but it’s also important to recognize that not all restrictions reflect distrust or tech gaps. Often, systems are configured to match the operational doctrine of the receiving country, not simply downgraded for secrecy’s sake.

Yes, China doesn’t micromanage exports like the U.S. does but that’s not a weakness. In Pakistan’s case, it reflects deep strategic trust and recognition that the Pakistani military establishment maintains a tight, centralized grip over its security architecture.

This isn’t Iran or some volatile state, Pakistan has a long track record of securely managing advanced foreign platforms across domains. The lack of “tight control” is a feature of the relationship, not a flaw.

 

[Black Wolf]

Well to be honest we don't know if Pakistan is receiving J-35. Even if it were, perhaps China should consider these concerns. It has little experience in handling this unlike the west.

Fair, nothing’s confirmed yet. But if China does move forward with a J-35AE export, it won’t be out of naivety. While it’s true China doesn’t have decades of export control infrastructure like the West, it doesn’t mean it’s operating blindly. China has already supplied Pakistan with high-end systems across air, naval, and missile domains and none have led to any credible compromise.

More importantly, Pakistan isn’t new to handling sensitive platforms either. With its military’s institutional grip and secure command structure, it has consistently proven to be a trusted, disciplined operator and that’s exactly why these kinds of discussions even come up in the first place.