J-35 carrier fighter (PLAN) thread

Schwerter_

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Assuming the rumors were not completely groundless, an alternative explanation is that SAC has indeed been working on a land based variant, or more precisely, FC-31 V3.0, aiming to attract interest from PLAAF and/or export customers. It is fundamentally in the interest of SAC to do so, since the naval orders of J-XY/J-35 are unlikely to be large enough. Well, SAC has been working arduously on V1.0 and V2.0 since forever, why not continue on a V3.0, now that PLAN has officially accepted J-XY/J-35 giving them a much needed boost in confidence and chance?

I'd be much more comfortable with the above explanation than that of PLAAF committing to a land based variant at this point in time.
I would think that if PLAAF has indeed committed to a land based variant, it would have been done at an earlier point in time than now (april 2022), say somewhere between 2018 and 2020, after the rumored PLAN deal on carrier-borne version but not too late. Personally I'm waiting on concrete evidence of the existance of this PLAAF varient but IMO it's entirely possible that the PLAAF has been involved in this for a few years at this point, as opposed to SAC still trying to get PLAAF interested.
 

Blitzo

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Assuming the rumors were not completely groundless, an alternative explanation is that SAC has indeed been working on a land based variant, or more precisely, FC-31 V3.0, aiming to attract interest from PLAAF and/or export customers. It is fundamentally in the interest of SAC to do so, since the naval orders of J-XY/J-35 are unlikely to be large enough. Well, SAC has been working arduously on V1.0 and V2.0 since forever, why not continue on a V3.0, now that PLAN has officially accepted J-XY/J-35 giving them a much needed boost in confidence and chance?

I'd be much more comfortable with the above explanation than that of PLAAF committing to a land based variant at this point in time.

I suppose it depends on how we interpret the phrasing of the rumours we have thus far.

I would say though, that I think the other explanation -- that sometime in the late 2010s, the PLAAF made a strategic procurement decision to go for a land based variant of J-XY/35 as a medium/heavy weight 5th gen complement to the heavy weight J-20, when trading a number of competing factors and analyses of alternatives -- is also quite plausible.

I think there are certainly valid portrayals of why a land based J-XY/35 variant for the PLAAF may make sense, however I also agree that an alternative procurement also could make sense (such as only mass producing J-20s instead, meaning that the land based J-XY/35 we are expecting would be a private endeavour like FC-31 V1/2 or J-11D), but I think if both are considered valid options, I feel like we need to consider the rumours in the way they're phrased as well.


I've linked this previously, which is an exchange had about a year or so ago, about why a land based J-XY/35 for the PLAAF could be plausible or even desirable. I think the positions still hold:

 

yungho

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hypothetically speaking, if a rich overseas customer was willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money for it, and if the PLA is willing to allow AVIC/SAC to dedicate that amount of their aerospace resources for an overseas customer, then sure, the idea of a land variant of J-XY/35 being developed with an overseas customer being the launch export customer, is plausible.
It will be painful, expensive, and be a massive industrial undertaking for the export customer, but sure, it's "plausible".

But I think you are viewing this in a manner of "is it technically possible for the land based variant to be for export as a launch customer?" rather than "looking at the basis of evidence, rumours, and timelines, who is the launch customer likely to realistically be?".

Let's review what we know:
1. The land based variant is expected to make its maiden flight sometime this year in 2022, meaning its development should have been actively going on for the last two years or so, even as a derivative of the carrier based J-XY/35.
2. We do not have any evidence or rumours of any overseas customer being interested in properly pursuing the FC-31 or J-XY/35, or any derivative thereof, since it emerged, and certainly nothing of any sort of contract being signed. We do not have any Chinese language rumours to that effect either.
3. The land based variant of J-XY/35 has been rumoured to be intended for the PLA.


.... given the above, I don't think we can humour the idea that the expectd/imminent land based variant is for an export launch customer.
It just doesn't match any of the information that we have, which if anything is directly contradictory to the idea that it is for export.



====

But let's be realistic.

No export customer is going to buy FC-31 or J-XY/35 variant as a lone launch customer, unless the PLA buys first. The costs and risks are just too high, and even oil rich countries in the Middle East know this.
If we want to talk about potential export prospects, the most likely path will be a dedicated export cleared variant of the land based J-XY/35 variant after the PLA has bought it and already operates it.
Export customers will be able to take advantage of a product whose development that the PLA has already paid for, with the risks already accounted for, and with an expansive logistics and support network to be able to have their own aircraft leverage off.
None of the industrial risk, and no upfront developmental costs -- only procurement and sustainment costs, which is what most nations want.
Perhaps if you were a nation that wanted to rapidly advance your aerospace industry to be able to produce 5th generation aircraft, then perhaps it would make sense.... but even then, why wouldn't you simply wait for the PLA to buy the land based J-XY/35 variant first, and then express an interest in buying it with co-production and a degree of transfer of technology? Why embark on the additional risk and cost of trying to be the launch customer for a new variant of an aircraft?
(Hint, this is the major reason why the F/A-18L -- the land based variant of the F/A-18A -- never hooked a customer, because no prospective export customer wanted to be the one to front up the costs and risk of developing a new variant, and because Northrop themselves weren't willing to front up the costs, and the US was not buying the F/A-18L either. With no one willing to pay for the full scale development of the aircraft, it simply withered and disappeared, and even customers interested in the F/A-18L proposal simply bought the lower risk F/A-18A with minimal or no modifications from the standard USN version, retaining the folding wings, reinforced structure and landing gear and everything else)

Adapting my previous overview, it would look like this (green, bottom right corner):

View attachment 86547
What is the benefit of having the tail wing swept-ed back (on the v2/prototype) vs having them swept-ed forward (v1)? Any speculation on why they made that change?
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm aware of the trade offs of a medium weight 5th generation fighter versus a heavy weight 5th generation fighter, and that it is a matter of debate as to how much cheaper (if any) the operating costs of a medium versus heavy weight fighter will be.
you are right, but that's not what I was trying to say. Far as I can remember, this rumor follows a clear logic in Chinese community:

PLA is going to buy FC-31 ---> PLA is going to buy a cheaper 5th gen fighter because J-20 is too expensive ---> that 5th gen fighter must by SAC FC-31 (V1.0->2.0->3.0->.....)

This is more like an extented battlefield for fanboys fighting on their preference over SAC vs CAC, and "PLAAF will buy SAC made 5th gen fighter adapted", or "medium weight fighter is a good supplement for J-20 fleet" are merely good arguments to support their wishful thinking.

My impression is that at the time, about a year and a bit ago, we started getting rumours that a land based J-XY/35 variant was a thing, with hints it was for the PLAAF as well (see below), and with rumours continuing more recently that a static frame was transported for testing, and expectancy of a maiden flight this year.
The trend lines are not consistent with an aircraft that is not being pursued.



the Chinese there said: 'project 21, interesting' and it could be a lot of things, including landbase J-31/XY, for sure, but it could also mean anything, like ARJ21 also has 21 in its name. So this is too far to jump to 'PLAAF to buy landbase J-31/XY' or even to buy a significant number.

I think the resistance to this idea of a land based J-XY/35 for the PLAAF is because perhaps logically or intuitively, it is thought not to make sense. On some level I understand this. A few years ago I only thought from that perspective as well.
But I think that is not a useful singular approach now, I think at this point in time, perhaps it is time to start thinking about why procuring a land based J-XY/35 for the PLAAF might make sense.
Oh, no, PLAAF to buy J-35/XY has always make sense to me, or least there are always some tiny little chances for that to happen. In fact PLAAF has history of bought aircrafts it really don't want (certain J-7 and J-8) and bought something it later proven useful by PLANAF (JH-7), so of course, there is a chance for PLAAF to buy some J-35/XY in the future.

But, I consider that chance as very slim and far from getting any conclusion, or too much speculation over the latest rumors in the pass few years.
1. it remind me too much of netizen fight story over FC-31, carrier based 5th fighter, and even J-20 on and off
2. logically, as you mentioned, even if landbase J-35/XY project goes smoothly and start mass production in late 20s or early 30s, why can't China invest more on 6th gen fighter, which could out in 2030~2035? and most of all, what happened if SAC win the 6th gen fighter procument??? SAC is going to produce two very new 5th gen and 6th gen fighter at the same time from mid 2030s?
in fact, at this stage, with 6th gen fighter competation in few years, shouldn't SAC focus more and 6th gen fighter instead of a landbase J-35/XY, after all, it took FC-31 almost 10 years to get the oppertunity after SAC lost the competation.
3. none of current rumors are 'straightforward' enough, what I mean is, given 'landbase J-35/XY' is still a rumor and not 100% concret, the rumor of 'PLAAF to buy landbase J-35/XY' or even 'to buy a lot landbase J-35/XY' just another step ahead. There is also a very good chance that after 'landbase J-35/XY', PLAAF still find no interest, and it's a practical a FC-31 V4.0 or somthing like that, could be SAC's F-18 to CF-188

So, of course, it's make sense for PLAAF to buy J-35/XY, but at this stage, it's too early to discuss what kind of impact will it make to PLAAF, just like discussion over what if PLAAF bought FC-31 V1.0 or V2.0
 
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Blitzo

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you are right, but that's not what I was trying to say. Far as I can remember, this rumor follows a clear logic in Chinese community:

PLA is going to buy FC-31 ---> PLA is going to buy a cheaper 5th gen fighter because J-20 is too expensive ---> that 5th gen fighter must by SAC FC-31 (V1.0->2.0->3.0->.....)

This is more like an extented battlefield for fanboys fighting on their preference over SAC vs CAC, and "PLAAF will buy SAC made 5th gen fighter adapted", or "medium weight fighter is a good supplement for J-20 fleet" are merely good arguments to support their wishful thinking.

I think you are misreading the situation.
Fanboy debates happen over everything with two obvious contenders:
- CAC proposal versus SAC proposal, for PLAAF heavyweight 5th gen fighter (J-20 won)
- CAC carrierborne J-20 variant versus SAC carrierborne FC-31 variant, for PLAN carrierborne 5th gen fighter (J-XY/35 won)

And now, for this, it is:
- CAC expanded J-20 production versus SAC land based J-XY/35 variant, for PLAAF balance of land based, 5th generation fighters.


No matter which option ends up getting chosen, it could be described as an "extended battlefield for fanboys". But that's because the original argument is based on such obvious contenders that only one of the few options can be viable to begin with, meaning when one of the contenders is ultimately chosen, it seems almost cliche because everyone is already overly familiar with the options that exist.


the Chinese there said: 'project 21, interesting' and it could be a lot of things, including landbase J-31/XY, for sure, but it could also mean anything, like ARJ21 also has 21 in its name. So this is too far to jump to 'PLAAF to buy landbase J-31/XY' or even to buy a significant number.

There were two links there, the other one described a slide how the aircraft being developed (J-XY/35) was for the navy and the air force.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
What is the benefit of having the tail wing swept-ed back (on the v2/prototype) vs having them swept-ed forward (v1)? Any speculation on why they made that change?

Swept back tail gives a better lever to the vertical tail surfaces, in relation to the center of mass of the plane. So the plane enjoy better control if everything else is equal. Or the tails and their control surfaces can be made smaller/lighter, even if similar control to swept forward tails is acceptable.

Downside would be the radar return of such tails, when looked at from behind and from below. Basically in situations where a radar is on the ground and behind the plane. But only compared to a swept forward tail ends. Still, it's not necessarily as bad as a fairly straight tail edge - as that'd be the worst for a ground based radar looking at the behind of the plane. A swept back tail may be quite bad at short ranges, but at longer ranges it'd still not reflect back the el. emissions to a ground radar.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Regarding the land based variant, I recall I posted this screenshot last year from an interview with 赵霞, deputy chief designer for J-15 and chief designer for FC-31:
192300d9mg0x0h0x46xrm8.jpeg
More on this interview:
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She said the new aircraft will have four variants. We had a lively discussions back then and I think we can nail down three of the variants fairly safely:

carrier based
land based
export

Question is what would the fourth variant be. At the time I was guessing land based naval fighter ala J-11BSH or something like that but people also have all sorts of different takes.

But anyway the point is given development since then we are even more certain now she's indeed talking about FC-31, and if that's the case multiple variants is pretty much confirmed and out of those surely the most likely is carrier based followed by land based. A separate export variant is less certain and even less so the fourth variant.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Registered Member
Question is what would the fourth variant be. At the time I was guessing land based naval fighter ala J-11BSH or something like that but people also have all sorts of different takes.
Double seat variant?
Attack aircraft cariant?
VTOL variant?
Unmanned variant?

Just my uneducated guess.

Speaking of VTOL variant, one of the guys in this forum has posted this VTOL engine R&D project image before. Ths image is from 2015. Not sure which company is responsible, or how the development work has progressed, since there has been no other news about said project.
51878250363_89346fdc95_h (1).jpg
 
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Deino

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Double seat variant?
Attack aircraft cariant?
VTOL variant?
Unmanned variant?

Just my uneducated guess.

Speaking of VTOL variant, one of the guys in this forum has posted this VTOL engine R&D project image before. Ths image is from 2015. Not sure which company is responsible, or how the development work has progressed, since there has been no other news about said project.
View attachment 86820

there will never be a VSTOL variant of the J-35
 
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