J-20... The New Generation Fighter

vesicles · Jan 29, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

pla101prc said:
is this indicative of how far China's 4th gen project has progressed?Wen said "we can DESIGN the world's best fighter"...so they are still designing?

Well, simply having something on the paper can't be an evidence of a successful "design" The only way to show that they CAN design it is to have a successful product. So the way I interpret this is that they are pretty close to the final product and this is why they are so confident about it.

vesicles · Jan 29, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

Lion said:
tphuang, I think those article is quite PR talk. With VIP like Hu coming. Of cos must say the best word.

Hopefully they can really produce quickly a 4th(5th) generation fighter since PAK FA prototype has flied.

Ever since AVIC 1 went back on its word regarding the new transport plane prototype. Some of the official word from China cannot be trusted.

But to get VIPs like Hu ans Wen to drop by must mean they have done something right and have been progressing well.

Blitzo · Jan 29, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

tphuang said:
of course it's PR talk. What do you mean AVIC1 went back on its word? It was never about seeing an actual prototype, but a model of the prototype and Maya showed that a while ago. You won't see the actual prototype and first flight until probably 2012 fro the large transport.

The Chinese next gen plane is estimated to make first flight in 2011.

As pla101prc said, AVIC pretty much let out that it'd show a mock up, if not a prototype (the latter was obviously a bit too much to ask for). but in the end we got a model of the plane the size of a freaking fridge. A tad dissapointing, but I don't think any of us expected AVIC to actually show a 1:1 mock up due to security reasons etc.

2011? Any idea what portion of 2011 (early, middle or late?) Hopefully they can speedy things up a bit seeing as the PAK FA's giving the J-XX a run for it's money..

mean_bird · Jan 29, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

vesicles said:
But to get VIPs like Hu ans Wen to drop by must mean they have done something right and have been progressing well.

Or maybe they didn't do anything and Hu went to kick their ***?

j/k

Considering the announcement made by China last year, I think a Chinese 5th Gen. aircraft (atleast first prototype) should be flying by 2012.

Maggern · Jan 29, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

vesicles said:
But to get VIPs like Hu ans Wen to drop by must mean they have done something right and have been progressing well.

I'm thinking the same thing and I guess that's tphuang's point as well. You don't see Hu and Wen frequenting dubious projects on a daily basis. If these guys actually dropped by it means CAC actually had something material to show them that they were confident would work out.

PS: And yeah, kudos to the Russians. An awesome plane, if nothing else. The Russians are experts at awesome-looking fighters

70092 · Feb 1, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

Chen zhongyan, a well known military insider in China, recently talks abut the JXX:

Chen's background:

He had worked in aero-related China military industry, and then obtained his doctor degree from one of two best graduate schools in the area of aero-engineering in China, and he is now enlisted in the PLA.

According to him:

CAC's 5th generation fighter has already done in 2009 (besides perhaps only lacks engines), it is likely this year this fighter can get maiden flight and we may see this thing very soon.

According to him, the fighter is "very science-fiction looking", the fighter's layout is fully blended, thus you can not tell wing from the body as clear as you do with today's aircraft (一体化气动布局), althrough B-2 is likely an exmaple of being fully blended.

The AESA radar, control interface, weapon systems (AAMs) for the fighter are all ready, and the engine, WS-15, is near ready, althrough it is still likely to use WS-10 for maiden flight.

————老兄这句话就说的不太客观了，根据本人以及本人在相关行业一线工作的同学所知，首先，中国不是心有余而力不足，成都样机09年就出来了，今年就能出来晃晃，开始试飞之后，试飞时间也不会太久，中国的试飞时间一般就是5年左右，可以参考10，飞豹等飞机，所以不是什么时候出来不确定，而是完全可以预期。另外，其一体化的气动布局很科幻——从90年代以来的n万次吹风没有白费，很值得期待，与之配套的有缘相控阵以及综合显示系统，都算齐备了，电子系统我们已经超过俄罗斯，类似西欧，这些都已经是现实，配套发动机ws1x前几年就开始地面试车，进展较为顺利，样机同样可以先用太行试飞，等几年新的发动机也会能用，自然可以无缝衔接，相关机载武器，比如pl12大改，焦平面成像的pl1x等，也都在定型试验中，各方面配套技术，可以说要么已经齐备，要么即将定型，要么距离成功不远，所以还真不存在技术不行的问题，中国这些年这方面发展很快，邓小平下马时代积累的很多问题确实还有残余，但是下马时代大家也不是什么都没干，研究还是继续的，就是没钱定型和装备，技术还是积累了很多，最近这十多年的井喷式大发展，突破和积累更是以几何级数暴涨，可以说问题还有，但不是主流，下定决心之后，技术并不缺，需要做的就是不要再来下马风！6 }0 I' k$ w# t- Y& y3 Y: q

————至于欧洲，我建议老兄不要过誉，欧洲单个国家，体系根本不完备，无力支撑四代机，即便联合起来，欠缺的技术也不少，欧洲军用发动机现在仅有中等推理的ws——ej200和m88，大推力ws必须从头开始做，中推和大推区别也是很大的，能做好中推，未必做得好大的，而且就算能做好，也至少需要十年左右，技术规律不是拍拍脑袋就能克服的！而一体化的先进气动布局，也需要至少十多年时间吹风和积累，遗憾的是，欧洲风洞分散，各国各自为战，对四代预研不足，吹风不多，有意义的数据更少，很多国家更是直接指望f35这样的战斗轰炸机充数，根本就没心思验证先进气动布局，所以这一块从现在开始算，没有十几年，欧洲也别想搞定！电子设备算是欧洲的传统强项，有缘相控阵和我国一样，都在现有飞机上试用，这个欧洲倒是不用从头来，不过母猪绑上航电，还是母猪！没平台，电子先进也白扯。与老兄认为的不同，现实是，欧洲最缺的，还是从头做起的技术储备，无论发动机还是气动布局和结构设计，都还没谱呢！
5 Q2 O+ U7 A! {) p) D" x* @

————至于毛子，如同我那帖子已经讨论过的，可不仅仅是没钱，电子技术落后，发动机拖后腿，气动布局也没创新，毛病大得很了。

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Centrist · Feb 1, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

70092 said:
Chen zhongyan, a well known military insider in China, recently talks abut the JXX:

Chen's background:

He had worked in aero-related China military industry, and then obtained his doctor degree from one of two best graduate schools in the area of aero-engineering in China, and he is now enlisted in the PLA.

According to him:

CAC's 5th generation fighter has already done in 2009 (besides perhaps only lacks engines), it is likely this year this fighter can get maiden flight and we may see this thing very soon.

According to him, the fighter is "very science-fiction looking", the fighter's layout is fully blended, thus you can not tell wing from the body as clear as you do with today's aircraft (一体化气动布局), althrough B-2 is likely an exmaple of being fully blended.

The AESA radar, control interface, weapon systems (AAMs) for the fighter are all ready, and the engine, WS-15, is near ready, althrough it is still likely to use WS-10 for maiden flight.

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I find it hard to believe that the WS15 is almost ready. We haven't even seen the engine in high altitude testing.

tphuang · Feb 1, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

Centrist said:
I find it hard to believe that the WS15 is almost ready. We haven't even seen the engine in high altitude testing.

ZhongYan is known to be optimistic of China's military progress or at least think they were further along than other people's assessments.

For this case, I think he is just saying WS-15 would be ready for the start of the testing. I don't know the exact status of WS-15, it might have reached high altitude testing already, but everything I've read says it is progressing a lot faster than expected.

Centrist · Feb 1, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

tphuang said:
ZhongYan is known to be optimistic of China's military progress or at least think they were further along than other people's assessments.

For this case, I think he is just saying WS-15 would be ready for the start of the testing. I don't know the exact status of WS-15, it might have reached high altitude testing already, but everything I've read says it is progressing a lot faster than expected.

It's unfortunate but we don't know when the WS-15 project began, i think we can assume it began in the 1993-1997 timeframe. Based on various rumors, the CJ2000 core of the engine was successfully tested around 2005 right? The core of the WS10 was tested around 1993 and it took another six years to get a full prototype engine built (1999). Rumor has it that two WS15 prototypes have been built and are undergoing bench testing, the same testing the WS10 received in 1999-2001 before one of the engines was placed on a J11 for high altitude testing.

I think it would be safe to say that this year or next, we will see the WS15 engine being tested on a J11B testbed. Based on the WS10 timeline, we could see certification of the engine in 2016 or earlier, provided no problems occur.

pla101prc · Feb 1, 2010

Re: New Generation Fighter

Centrist said:
It's unfortunate but we don't know when the WS-15 project began, i think we can assume it began in the 1993-1997 timeframe. Based on various rumors, the CJ2000 core of the engine was successfully tested around 2005 right? The core of the WS10 was tested around 1993 and it took another six years to get a full prototype engine built (1999). Rumor has it that two WS15 prototypes have been built and are undergoing bench testing, the same testing the WS10 received in 1999-2001 before one of the engines was placed on a J11 for high altitude testing.

I think it would be safe to say that this year or next, we will see the WS15 engine being tested on a J11B testbed. Based on the WS10 timeline, we could see certification of the engine in 2016 or earlier, provided no problems occur.

but problems will most likely occur...this is only China's what...third turbofan?

J-20... The New Generation Fighter

vesicles

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vesicles

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Blitzo

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mean_bird

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Maggern

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70092

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Centrist

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tphuang

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Centrist

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pla101prc

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