J-20... The New Generation Fighter

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unknauthr

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

By the way, China has spent the last 30 yrs on fighter jet engine development.
and looks like it almost going to breakthrough, while India hasn't begin its first jet engine yet. You can't skip it. you have to go through it.

I tend to believe that India's development shortcomings are more fundamental than whether they have invested in jet engine technology. It's a question both of whether they have the necessary resources, and whether they have invested them wisely.

In 1986, shortly after India at first launched its Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program in 1983, India launched the development of its indigenous Kaveri engine program. The first core did not run until 1995, however, and India was forced to eventually abandon the Kaveri in favor of an off-the-shelf, US-supplied F404 when the first LCA prototype (or Tejas) finally flew in 2001.

There are a number of lessons to be learned from this story. The first, is that developing a modern, jet fighter engine is much more difficult than developing and building the airframe. There are only a handful of nations, and a handful of manufacturers in the world, that have developed and produced their own modern jet fighter engine. There are many more, in contrast, that have developed and produced their own fighter airframe.

Second, there is a sharp contrast between Chinese and Indian development efforts over the past two decades. The Tejas was under development for 15 years before its first prototype flight in 2001, and for 22 year by the time that the first production aircraft took to the skies in 2008. For decades, the Indian program suffered because their program leadership insisted on following an "all indigeneous" path to success - refusing to adopt lessons learned and experience from foreign developers who could have shortened the development process.

In contrast, the J-10 program as we know it now was not really launched until 1991 (when it underwent a radical redesign), and within just over a decade produced an operational fighter that is today being produced in large numbers. What was the difference? Political will was a large part of it. Once China's leadership truly committed to making the program happen, it happened very quickly. The other major difference was a willingness to learn an borrow from the success of other nations' programs. A successful J-10 was deemed to be a national priority - not whether everything that came off the manufacturing line had been invented in China first.

I am convinced that China has the resources and capabilities to master a great many technical challenges, if they choose to do so. Within a decade, we will all be seeing a new generation, low observable Chinese fighter take to the skies. For China, it's purely a matter of having the political will to carry it out. I am somewhat less confident that the Russian PAK-FA will enter large scale production within that same time frame, and India's next generation fighters will be imported - whether from Russia or from the US.
 

unknauthr

Junior Member
Next Generation Fighter to Enter Service by 2020

In a televised interview with CCTV, China's Deputy Air Force Commander Ho Weirong reported that China's next generation, low observable fighter will enter operational service by 2020.
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In the interview, Ho Weirong confirmed that flight trials are expected to last several years prior to entry into operational service - suggesting that we are not that far away from prototype first flight.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Next Generation Fighter to Enter Service by 2020

In a televised interview with CCTV, China's Deputy Air Force Commander Ho Weirong reported that China's next generation, low observable fighter will enter operational service by 2020.
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In the interview, Ho Weirong confirmed that flight trials are expected to last several years prior to entry into operational service - suggesting that we are not that far away from prototype first flight.
Not surprising. It seems most of the elements necessary for the PLA to become a modern military converge on that 2020 deadline (aircraft carrier), and then to be consolidated by 2030.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

A summery for us non-Chinese speakers would be nice

That's just a Pinkov article repeating the same old silly claims of Russian aircraft makers -- basically saying China cannot possibly make a 5th generation aircraft since it doesn't yet have an operational modern turbofan.

Of course, FWS-10 is already equipped in J-11B and soon J-10 (J-10B?), so that is wrong right from the beginning.

Not surprising. It seems most of the elements necessary for the PLA to become a modern military converge on that 2020 deadline (aircraft carrier), and then to be consolidated by 2030.

Well as others have said, when the PLAAF general says enter service in 8 to 10 years (i.e. 2017 to 2019), he probably means large scale introduction into the forces. For J-10, there was a 3-4 year gap between the first small batch entering service and large scale deployment.

So J-20 will probably enter service in small numbers by 2014-2015.
 
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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: New Generation Fighter

J10 took some 5-6 years from the first flight to first squadron standing up. F35 is going to take, if there arent any further delays, 6-7 years. By that logic, if J20 flies next year, and there arent any problems during testing, first squadron might stand up sometime after 2016, but serious number of planes in the fleet (upward of 100) we probably wont see until 2020. That is if there arent any serious delays to the program.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Re: New Generation Fighter

Having access to advanced technology shouldn't stop a nation from being innovative and doing further development to the technology. This is exactly what's happening among a number of western nations who learn from each other, and at the same time make further efforts in new development by themselves. (Otoh, unfortunately, China do not have the same kind of access with other nations.)

Funding becomes less of a problem when you can find customers for your products in some countries who seem content with only importing them, thereby spreading out your development cost and even make a profit. This was certainly true for Russia, who at one time had China as their biggest customer. Russia would want this trade to continue indefinitely, but it seems China has better ideas.

The problem is the mind-set. If you know have a back-up plan, you tend to try not very hard since you know you have something to fall back to. India would be in this situation. I am sure they have the ambition to have an independent defense industry. but whenever there is a bump, the thought that they can always get help from other nations and worse to the worst, they can always buy from others, comes up.

China, however, does not have this luxury. They knows that no one but themselves can help themselves. If they can't figure it out, they WILL lag behind and other nations will stand there and laugh at them. So they push harder because there is no alternative.
 

Mcsweeney

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

I understand that India is far behind China but I'm actually really interested in the development of the HAL Tejas. If they can get it out within a couple years as scheduled it would be a major breakthrough for them; it's basically "The J-10 of India". Although it will be weaker than the J-10, most of the value will be the experience of developing an indigenous jet fighter as opposed to the end product itself (phasing out the MiG-21s will be nice though).
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

A summery for us non-Chinese speakers would be nice

translation state that China to date unable to mass produce T/R MMIC,not to mention phase shifter.
despite talk about WS-10,J-10B still rely on AL-31F.
other bigger problem was reliability and dependability of Chinese avionic,such as mechanical array radar,still lag behind european radar, PAF purchased J-10 will not include Chinese make radar and avionic.
all in all, China still has to rely on russia .
 

tdultima

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter

Nov 13, 2009

Bradley Perrett/Beijing

A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.

Beijing’s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.

The new fighter “is currently under development,” says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. “[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.

“According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,” he adds.

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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

translation state that China to date unable to mass produce T/R MMIC,not to mention phase shifter.
despite talk about WS-10,J-10B still rely on AL-31F.
other bigger problem was reliability and dependability of Chinese avionic,such as mechanical array radar,still lag behind european radar, PAF purchased J-10 will not include Chinese make radar and avionic.
all in all, China still has to rely on russia .
Lol I bet the Russians love Andrei's articles like this.

Dude why even post an article from such a BS source anyway? (Even though I've done so in the past as well, but still..)

On the "J-20's" service date thing, if we're going along the J-10's timeline, they had full IOC around two years before it entered small scale service so I'm hoping we'll see a few 4th gen planes in service around 2015-2017.
 
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