J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

mean_bird said:

I believe building one thing for a large radar such as used on KJ-200 and KJ-2000 is slightly different than building one small enough for a fighter jet. I am sure you know better than I do on chinese defense matters so probably you can shed some more light on this. Also considering China isn't even trying to hide its 4th gen plane, if such an AESA existed, one can presume it would have been known by know.

Lets wait and see how things go. It would make little sense to have a "4th gen fighter" with non PESA/AESA radar so I am sure one is close to being built if not already done.

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We are comparing China to Russia here, because PKF is claiming that China needs Russian radar for next gen plane. And seeing that KJ-2000 and KJ-200 use AESA radar with T/R modules that is present with Russian AWACS, there is no basis to his confidence that Russia will get there and China will be so late that it would have to buy Russian. As for China not "trying to hide its 4th gen plane" means we would've known an AESA existed, I don't even know how to answer that. Have you seen any reliable picture of the 4th gen plane? We read published articles of different radar firms in China producing AESA radar sometimes and a lot of those articles are even posted here. In fact, I have such posts in the J-10 thread that you can read. The level of transparency and disclosure for AESA radar in China is actually greater. It's just that people don't pay attention when they come out. I certainly fully expect J-10B's production variants to be using AESA radar.

You do know that Tanvir Mahmood explicitly said in an interview with AFP (in 2008) that pakistan wants a western radar of its own choice on the FC-20? I am sure there is a way out or he wouldn't have said that.

However, seeing the new date is so far away, its entirely possible to have complete Chinese systems on the FC-20. I believe he also said there are "new weapons and missiles being made by China for themselves and for us". So also possible to see a next generation of A2A missiles on it.

Sorry for going off topic and bringing the FC-20 discussion here.

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It's all competition, why not say things that could be leveraged for the best possible deal? I don't think the actual configuration to what PAF will get has been decided, even though the intent has already been agreed upon. I will believe what goes on FC-20 when it has been signed and revealed.

Re: New Generation Fighter

technically China can indeed field fighter AESA,due to cost of production, the cost very very high.

Re: New Generation Fighter

tphuang said:

China is not behind Russia in this area. PKF just can't accept that. If you believe his stories, that's your problem.

What do you think is used on the AESA radars for the T/R modules on KJ-200 and KJ-2000?

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T/R module for low frequency radar such as vhf/uhf,l-band... can easily fabricate and produce,but it was the high frequency X-band MMIC was the most diffucult to mass produce. unless you willing to invest billion on facilities and equipment.

Re: New Generation Fighter

challenge said:

T/R module for low frequency radar such as vhf/uhf,l-band... can easily fabricate and produce,but it was the high frequency X-band MMIC was the most diffucult to mass produce. unless you willing to invest billion on facilities and equipment.

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that's nonsense, did you read up on how much work it took with the Israelis before they could comfortable produce the T/R modules at an acceptable cost and quality for KJ-2000? The Chinese electronics industry is far ahead of the Russians.

Re: New Generation Fighter

mean_bird said:

I believe building one thing for a large radar such as used on KJ-200 and KJ-2000 is slightly different than building one small enough for a fighter jet. I am sure you know better than I do on chinese defense matters so probably you can shed some more light on this. Also considering China isn't even trying to hide its 4th gen plane, if such an AESA existed, one can presume it would have been known by know.

Lets wait and see how things go. It would make little sense to have a "4th gen fighter" with non PESA/AESA radar so I am sure one is close to being built if not already done.




You do know that Tanvir Mahmood explicitly said in an interview with AFP (in 2008) that pakistan wants a western radar of its own choice on the FC-20? I am sure there is a way out or he wouldn't have said that.

However, seeing the new date is so far away, its entirely possible to have complete Chinese systems on the FC-20. I believe he also said there are "new weapons and missiles being made by China for themselves and for us". So also possible to see a next generation of A2A missiles on it.

Sorry for going off topic and bringing the FC-20 discussion here.

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I wouldn't be surprised China would actually prefer Pakistan getting the entire J-10 weapon systems from Western or other sources, simply because China would not want risking the possibility of exposing information about one of her most advanced weapon system to others, even if it's unintentional on the part of Pakistan. The only negative thing about this is that some party would consider this as a sign that the Chinese system must have underperformed that of the western or other counterpart. But I doubt China would actually care or even think about this kind of perception. All being said, some solution could still be worked out, and it's all up to Pakistan as to her final choice.

Re: New Generation Fighter

tphuang said:

that's nonsense, did you read up on how much work it took with the Israelis before they could comfortable produce the T/R modules at an acceptable cost and quality for KJ-2000? The Chinese electronics industry is far ahead of the Russians.

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opinion about chinese high tech industries come from official Chinese media and by foreign observer.70% of high tech has to be imported.
even chip for cell phone and DVD has to be imported,Godson microprocesor has to be produce in south korea.
the other probelm was technology embargo by the west,specially the US.other such as lack of management skill.according to several foregn bankers operate in shanghai and beijing,the big problem about the Chinese industries was management.
with this data,you got the picture about the current problem confrontin chinese industries

Re: New Generation Fighter

vesicles said:

The problem is the mind-set. If you know have a back-up plan, you tend to try not very hard since you know you have something to fall back to. India would be in this situation. I am sure they have the ambition to have an independent defense industry. but whenever there is a bump, the thought that they can always get help from other nations and worse to the worst, they can always buy from others, comes up.

China, however, does not have this luxury. They knows that no one but themselves can help themselves. If they can't figure it out, they WILL lag behind and other nations will stand there and laugh at them. So they push harder because there is no alternative.

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Such might not be the case. Having assess to advance technology will speed up developement by a lot. I remember a time (when I was still a kid) Japanese's cars are often considered as copied machines, they have all the assess to western technology at that time, but now... no one dare to look down on the Japanese cars.

Likewise for India. At this time, they might still not been able to develope their defence system such as ships and other advance system independently, but enough reverse engineering of the bought equipment might and will give them an insight into the working mechanics the tech and so they will be able to have a fuller and quicker understanding of how the system work and so make future designing much simpler than China.

Re: New Generation Fighter

rhino123 said:

Such might not be the case. Having assess to advance technology will speed up developement by a lot. I remember a time (when I was still a kid) Japanese's cars are often considered as copied machines, they have all the assess to western technology at that time, but now... no one dare to look down on the Japanese cars.

Likewise for India. At this time, they might still not been able to develope their defence system such as ships and other advance system independently, but enough reverse engineering of the bought equipment might and will give them an insight into the working mechanics the tech and so they will be able to have a fuller and quicker understanding of how the system work and so make future designing much simpler than China.

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the hurdle is to construct an entire system on one set of principle. like the Americans have the American style, Russians have the Soviet style, China is mainly Soviet style but is complemented by American elements...they all have their pros and cons, but you need to be consistent. for india its just a big gaggle of everything. you get a bit of every country, if they just stick with one, say the russians, and complemented by european and israel technology, its prolly better.

Re: New Generation Fighter

challenge said:

T/R module for low frequency radar such as vhf/uhf,l-band... can easily fabricate and produce,but it was the high frequency X-band MMIC was the most diffucult to mass produce. unless you willing to invest billion on facilities and equipment.

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I guess you never learn. What I show you the picture on Chinese products.

low frequency stuffs don't use GaAs technology. That catalog I show is all for high frequency stuff. 8GHz to 20 Ghz.
Nobody would use GaAs for low frequency stuffs, that would be stupid and wasteful.

Again you don't need billion why, all MMIC still use the 6 inch older equipments unlike making CMOS commercial products such as CPU, memory, Those you need 12 inch fab an cost billions but not fab for RF. They still use older type of equipments even for US.

No one would use 12 inch fab for RF process in the world today. That's stupid and overkill.

old style 6 inch is all you need for GaAS fab. ANd there are comapnies in beijing supplying those fab equipments. ion implantation, etcher.

Re: New Generation Fighter

challenge said:

opinion about chinese high tech industries come from official Chinese media and by foreign observer.70% of high tech has to be imported.
even chip for cell phone and DVD has to be imported,Godson microprocesor has to be produce in south korea.
the other probelm was technology embargo by the west,specially the US.other such as lack of management skill.according to several foregn bankers operate in shanghai and beijing,the big problem about the Chinese industries was management.
with this data,you got the picture about the current problem confrontin chinese industries

Click to expand...

There are companies in shanghai doing cellphone chipsets, one of them is Spreadtrum Communications


they are even exported to Korea. Huawei starting doing cellphone chipset also SMIC foundry have 90 nm 65nm, 45nm easily can produce Godson processors. You have no knowledge about CHina IC industry.