J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Status
Not open for further replies.

Red___Sword

Junior Member
For the love of ancestors, in this "J-20 Fighter III" thread, people have already (have to) make a new thread to talk about the "J-20 being a tech demo" else where to keep this thread nice and clean... and it have a trend to open another thread else where (maybe the "members club" section) to discuss "whether China can afford mass produce of J-20?".

This is like "J-20 fake stealth", "J-20 steal F-22 tech", "face it, no one as good as F-22!" kind of days, all over again. - To patriot down there, no one here wants to "replace" F-22, just please "leave some room" to the J-20 would you?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
time to ignore that guy's annoying, unconstructive ramblings and get this thread back on track. i only even bothered to reply him solely cuz there aren't any new updates or developments lately.

thanks martian for the amazing post. let's continue the discussions on the j-20 and your new findings. and blitzio thx for the effort and those nice nice posts, but i think it's bout time we should all try to ignore fulcrum the next time he posts. hes an energy drain
Ignore me it is okay with me, i have aerodynamic papers and reports that support me i do not use internet gossips and ganging to claim i am right, i use NASA papers to draw conclusions.

That is better i do not need discuss gossips.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Before Mig-29 derailed the thread with irrelevant economics arguments, I was making the point that the latest "Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands" from Australia Air Power shows the pecking order for the world's stealth fighters are:

1. F-22
2. J-20
3. F-35

----------

In January 2011, I ranked the stealthiness of the world's premier fighters as F-22, J-20, and F-35 (see post replicated below). Six months have passed. How does my assessment hold up in comparison to professional analysis by "Peter Goon, BEng (Mech), FTE (USNTPS), Head of Test and Evaluation, Air Power Australia" (see
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
)?

Not surprisingly, the thorough analysis by Mr. Goon is in perfect agreement with my initial assessment from six months ago. Here is a key excerpt from Australia Air Power's analysis by Mr. Goon:

"Engineers and Scientists who work in ‘stealth’ (AKA ‘Low Observable’) designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: ‘Stealth’ is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. The J-20 has observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. The X-35 mostly observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, ‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to ‘Low Observability’.

While discussing ‘rear-ends’, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles. However, the difference is much like the proverbial ‘Ham Omelette’: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20.

In a market now dominated by “a total indifference to what is real”, no such option is now or ever was possible for the JSF, as its design is based upon meeting the bare minimum (a.k.a. “Threshold”) requirements of the JORD wherein “excellence is the enemy of good enough”; as has the STOVL F-35B as the baseline design; and, thus, is heavily constrained by the specified roles for this aircraft as well as the risks to reputations based political imperatives of accelerating a much-delayed and grossly over-budget program.

The issue of the use of materials to suppress radar signature is interesting. Publications show that the Chinese are making a substantial investment in use of materials to reduce radar signature and have produced large volumes of research results. So far, there have been no Chinese public disclosures on materials that make a substantial reduction of signatures across a broad range of air combat radar frequencies. Come to think of it, there are no United States research papers on the subject. Why is that, one wonders?"

-----

Let me translate Mr. Goon's insights into plain English.

1. F-22 is fully optimized for stealth. Its clean lines and flattened engine nozzles are obvious to even a casual observer.

2. The J-20 is very close to the F-22 in stealth shaping. The two notable flaws from the "Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands" are "some curvature of the sides" that need to be re-worked and glaring round engine nozzles.

3. To save money, the F-35 has a compromised design of "‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ [that] have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative." Also, the F-35 and the J-20 both share the round engine nozzles, which do not measure up to F-22 stealth standards.

Why are "hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts" a problem? Recall your experience of driving on a rain-slicked road at night with your headlights turned on. Very difficult to see the road, right? The rain-slicked road is almost a perfect mirror. The beams (which are electromagnetic radiation like radar waves) from the car headlights bounce away from you.

However, if there are lots of "hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts" in the road then you can see much better (like a radar receiver), because the car's lights are being bounced back into your eyes. For the same reason that you can easily see a bumpy rain-slicked road, it is much easier for a radar to detect a F-35 with bumpy surfaces.

Finally, the F-35 was always intended to be an economy-model stealth fighter. The U.S. military will not redesign the F-35's round engine nozzles. The U.S. already has the F-22. There is no point in redesigning the F-35 until it looks like a F-22. There wouldn't be any cost savings.

China's J-20 Mighty Dragon is a very different story. It is China's premier stealth fighter and its design won't be finalized until about 2018. It is likely the Chinese will alter the J-20 Mighty Dragon design in the next seven years to eliminate its partial weakness from "some curvature of the sides" and round engine nozzles. In 2018, do not be surprised to see a finalized J-20 Mighty Dragon that matches the F-22 in all-aspect stealth and with flattened engine nozzles.

----------

My January 22, 2011 post:

My estimate of J-20's RCS is 0.005-0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db)

From the front, the J-20 matches the F-22's stealth profile. While the J-20 is flying at you, the incremental increase in area from its canards is minimal (e.g. look at a piece of paper edge-wise; you only see a line). Also, the J-20's canards are probably made of composite material, coated with RAM, and curve-shaped to deflect radar waves. For all intents and purposes, the J-20 has a F-22 RCS frontal profile of 0.0001 m2.

From the rear, with its circular saw-toothed engine nozzles, the J-20 looks like the F-35 and it should have a similar rear RCS of 0.005 m2.

In conclusion, depending on your point of view, the J-20's RCS ranges from 0.005 to 0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db).

From Global Security:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Radar Cross Section (RCS) / RCS (m2) / RCS (dB)

  1. automobile 100 20
  2. B-52 100
  3. B-1(A/B) 10
  4. F-15 25
  5. Su-27 15
  6. cabin cruiser 10 10
  7. Su-MKI 4
  8. Mig-21 3
  9. F-16 5
  10. F-16C 1.2
  11. man 1 0
  12. F-18 1
  13. Rafale 1
  14. B-2 0.75 ?
  15. Typhoon 0.5
  16. Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
  17. B-2 0.1 ?
  18. A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
  19. bird 0.01 -20
  20. F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
  21. F-117 0.003
  22. insect 0.001 -30
  23. F-22 0.0001 -40
  24. B-2 0.0001 -40

----------

I said the J-20 canards were irrelevant for four reasons:

1. Composite material composition

2. RAM coating

3. Curved surface to deflect radar waves

4. Small incremental increase in surface area

----------

Ranking of world stealth fighters:

1. F-22 0.0001 m2

2. J-20 0.005-0.0001 m2

3. F-35 0.005 m2

4. French Rafale 1 m2

5. Russian Pak-Fa (or T-50) 3 m2

6. F-16 5 m2

i can see you are very savvy pakfa worse than Rafale and J-20 better than F-35


I will tell you something if you want to ban me do it ask as you did in indian defence, but i will be very honest with you men discuss topics respects other and men, if they do not agree can say let us cut the topic we can not reach an understanding or open a second thread, and believe me is a lack of respect the way you propose things if you want to say,this thread is only for those who are fans of J-20 without any critic to the design i won`t participate and in fact the moderators can simply ban no problem with me, but if you really want a forum where different views are seen then accept my opinions whatever different are to yours that is called respect to some ones opinions
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
i can see you are very savvy pakfa worse than Rafale and J-20 better than F-35


I will tell you something if you want to ban me do it ask as you did in indian defence, but i will be very honest with you men discuss topics respects other and men, if they do not agree can say let us cut the topic we can not reach an understanding or open a second thread, and believe me is a lack of respect the way you propose things if you want to say,this thread is only for those who are fans of J-20 without any critic to the design i won`t participate and in fact the moderators can simply ban no problem with me, but if you really want a forum where different views are seen then accept my opinions whatever different are to yours that is called respect to some ones opinions

We have clear cut rules on this forum as long as you don't break them you won't have trouble. But a good portion of your posts are either not related to the one you quote or they are simply flawed when you cite your NASA and aerodynamic studies.

This is not a thread for only fans of the J-20 and is not unavailable to critics. We welcome different views just like anywhere. so long as it is logical and you respond to the post you quote relevantly.
So long as your posts MAKE SENSE. Some of your replies to my posts were compltely irrelevant today -- that constitutes unconstructive rambling.

But if you're choosing to not post here then good freakin riddance.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
compete in what?

it also doesn't make sense that china's economy, consist of a 1-billion population, if maintain growth at this rate, can't handle 200-500 J-20 if the production was handled and done properly. for all we know, we dont even know the price tag of j-20. however i do agree it still won't be cheap, and that china still do need a cheap alternative for j-20.

no one is saying china is the best or whatever, and no one has even attempted to go in that direction to say something like that, but certainly stop telling us "china<US+NATO+UN+russia+india + every other nation" cause we're sick of hearing that crap. it's unconstructive, we don't care, and we certainly don't need non-experts like u, to tell us wt u think cuz who are you to judge the entire PRC capability based on your limited knowledge?

China is capable of developing a stealth fighter, no one doubts that, the unveiling was a proof, the US unvailed that information to say to the world F-35 can detect the F-22, is a propaganda war.


China unveils J-20, americans say we can detect our own F-22.

China will very likely built 200 perhaps more but it does not make sense build so many because if the F-35 will be built in numbers near 2000, then makes more sense build a light fighter like the F-35.

Russia and India are already working in that type of jet, China sure will do the same.

These fighters are expensive, even for nations like China, US, Russia, India, and Europe and at the long run people need to eat an dress, so no nation will survive building 100 F-22s come on, not even China, they need to make partners to finance the technology, Russia is doing it with India, the US with Europe, if you ask your self Italy will get stealth fighters soon named F-35s and they build parts of the F-35, is it an italian jet? no it is not.


So being realistic is not being a troll as you claim here, i am realitic and honest, it makes mroe sense to China do a light fighter with their allies like Russia and the US do.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
compete in what?

it also doesn't make sense that china's economy, consist of a 1-billion population, if maintain growth at this rate, can't handle 200-500 J-20 if the production was handled and done properly. for all we know, we dont even know the price tag of j-20. however i do agree it still won't be cheap, and that china still do need a cheap alternative for j-20.

no one is saying china is the best or whatever, and no one has even attempted to go in that direction to say something like that, but certainly stop telling us "china<US+NATO+UN+russia+india + every other nation" cause we're sick of hearing that crap. it's unconstructive, we don't care, and we certainly don't need non-experts like u, to tell us wt u think cuz who are you to judge the entire PRC capability based on your limited knowledge?

China is capable of developing a stealth fighter, no one doubts that, the unveiling was a proof, the US unvailed that information to say to the world F-35 can detect the F-22, is a propaganda war.


China unveils J-20, americans say we can detect our own F-22.

China will very likely built 200 perhaps more but it does not make sense build so many because if the F-35 will be built in numbers near 2000, then makes more sense build a light fighter like the F-35.

Russia and India are already working in that type of jet, China sure will do the same.

These fighters are expensive, even for nations like China, US, Russia, India, and Europe and at the long run people need to eat an dress, so no nation will survive building 1000 F-22s come on, not even China, they need to make partners to finance the technology, Russia is doing it with India, the US with Europe, if you ask your self Italy will get stealth fighters soon named F-35s and they build parts of the F-35, is it an italian jet? no it is not but they do participate and build parts.


So being realistic is not being a troll as you claim here, i am realitic and honest, it makes mroe sense to China make a light fighter with their allies like Russia and the US do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top