J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

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tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
Look the chinese J-20 are expensive even for Chinese standards, 200 is a pretty much alrge number, scond even China growing let say to the level of the EU in 2020, the living standards of chinese will be lower and the raw materials are usually priced in dollars or Euros, so China will certianly built 200 up to 2030, by that time the F-22 fleet will be 25 years old and the F-35 19 years old.

You also are nota aware the F-35 is an international program, that not a US program, it is a NATO sponsored program, the T-50 is Russia-India program.

China will develop most likely a cheap stealth fighter a F-35 type aircraft, but still China can not compete with NATO, Russia and India also can not compete with NATO.

You're joking me right? If China could only buy 200 J 20 then Russia would get maybe 70 PAK FA and India 50 based on their respective economic size.

The amount of money China alone can spend on the J 20 would be more than what Russia and India could hobble together.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Look the chinese J-20 are expensive even for Chinese standards, 200 is a pretty much alrge number, scond even China growing let say to the level of the EU in 2020, the living standards of chinese will be lower and the raw materials are usually priced in dollars or Euros, so China will certianly built 200 up to 2030, by that time the F-22 fleet will be 25 years old and the F-35 19 years old.

You also are nota aware the F-35 is an international program, that not a US program, it is a NATO sponsored program, the T-50 is Russia-India program.

China will develop most likely a cheap stealth fighter a F-35 type aircraft, but still China can not compete with NATO, Russia and India also can not compete with NATO.

Kk we'll see. I'm tired of talking to you about this.
 

kyanges

Junior Member
he is a scaremonger he did not say these

radar power density changes from radar to radar, and quoting values f one model to another does not mean two types of radars will detect a stealth aircraft at same distances and it has been reported the F-35 can detect and jam the F-22 radars.
China’s newest combat aircraft prototype, the J-20, will require an intense development program if it is going to catch up with fast-moving anti-stealth advances.

In fact, anti-stealth will bring into question all stealth designs: How much invulnerability will current low-observability techniques offer as air defense systems adopt larger and more powerful active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars? From the early days of AESA development, a key goal was to build a radar that could detect very small objects—such as a cruise missile at a distance great enough to target and shoot it down—or a larger object like a fighter with a very low-observable treatment.

Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may already be an operational capability. In a series of tests at Edwards AFB, Calif., in 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers. Raytheon’s family of X-band airborne AESA radar—in particular, those on upgraded F-15Cs stationed in Okinawa—can detect small, low-signature cruise missiles.



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Totally irrelevant to my post which was only about clarifying his usage of the quote, "Peace in our time." Interesting info anyways, certainly thought provoking. :) .
 
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Look the chinese J-20 are expensive even for Chinese standards, 200 is a pretty much alrge number, scond even China growing let say to the level of the EU in 2020, the living standards of chinese will be lower and the raw materials are usually priced in dollars or Euros, so China will certianly built 200 up to 2030, by that time the F-22 fleet will be 25 years old and the F-35 19 years old.

You also are nota aware the F-35 is an international program, that not a US program, it is a NATO sponsored program, the T-50 is Russia-India program.

China will develop most likely a cheap stealth fighter a F-35 type aircraft, but still China can not compete with NATO, Russia and India also can not compete with NATO.

compete in what?

it also doesn't make sense that china's economy, consist of a 1-billion population, if maintain growth at this rate, can't handle 200-500 J-20 if the production was handled and done properly. for all we know, we dont even know the price tag of j-20. however i do agree it still won't be cheap, and that china still do need a cheap alternative for j-20.

no one is saying china is the best or whatever, and no one has even attempted to go in that direction to say something like that, but certainly stop telling us "china<US+NATO+UN+russia+india + every other nation" cause we're sick of hearing that crap. it's unconstructive, we don't care, and we certainly don't need non-experts like u, to tell us wt u think cuz who are you to judge the entire PRC capability based on your limited knowledge?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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You know that article came out so close to the first flight that all it was telling was how to defeat a Raptor. How would they know? Because they've known this for a long time and just rode the wave of everyone saying the Raptor would be invisible everywhere hype. Now that the J-20 has emerged all of the sudden the stealth age is over because there are so many ways that have been developed to defeat enemy stealth (AKA their own steath fighters).

I love how the bar has been raised. Before the hurdle for China was that it could never come out with a stealth fighter. Now they're arguing about how China cannot overcome the smaller hurdles. That's an oxymoron.
 

nosh

Junior Member
F-35 is a fifth generation in the same way that the Panavia Tornado is a third generation. In principle it counts, but in reality it is not so exciting.
 

Martian

Senior Member
Before Mig-29 derailed the thread with irrelevant economics arguments, I was making the point that the latest "Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands" from Australia Air Power shows the pecking order for the world's stealth fighters are:

1. F-22
2. J-20
3. F-35

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In January 2011, I ranked the stealthiness of the world's premier fighters as F-22, J-20, and F-35 (see post replicated below). Six months have passed. How does my assessment hold up in comparison to professional analysis by "Peter Goon, BEng (Mech), FTE (USNTPS), Head of Test and Evaluation, Air Power Australia" (see
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)?

Not surprisingly, the thorough analysis by Mr. Goon is in perfect agreement with my initial assessment from six months ago. Here is a key excerpt from Australia Air Power's analysis by Mr. Goon:

"Engineers and Scientists who work in ‘stealth’ (AKA ‘Low Observable’) designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: ‘Stealth’ is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. The J-20 has observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. The X-35 mostly observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, ‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to ‘Low Observability’.

While discussing ‘rear-ends’, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles. However, the difference is much like the proverbial ‘Ham Omelette’: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20.

In a market now dominated by “a total indifference to what is real”, no such option is now or ever was possible for the JSF, as its design is based upon meeting the bare minimum (a.k.a. “Threshold”) requirements of the JORD wherein “excellence is the enemy of good enough”; as has the STOVL F-35B as the baseline design; and, thus, is heavily constrained by the specified roles for this aircraft as well as the risks to reputations based political imperatives of accelerating a much-delayed and grossly over-budget program.

The issue of the use of materials to suppress radar signature is interesting. Publications show that the Chinese are making a substantial investment in use of materials to reduce radar signature and have produced large volumes of research results. So far, there have been no Chinese public disclosures on materials that make a substantial reduction of signatures across a broad range of air combat radar frequencies. Come to think of it, there are no United States research papers on the subject. Why is that, one wonders?"

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Let me translate Mr. Goon's insights into plain English.

1. F-22 is fully optimized for stealth. Its clean lines and flattened engine nozzles are obvious to even a casual observer.

2. The J-20 is very close to the F-22 in stealth shaping. The two notable flaws from the "Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands" are "some curvature of the sides" that need to be re-worked and glaring round engine nozzles.

3. To save money, the F-35 has a compromised design of "‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ [that] have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative." Also, the F-35 and the J-20 both share the round engine nozzles, which do not measure up to F-22 stealth standards.

Why are "hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts" a problem? Recall your experience of driving on a rain-slicked road at night with your headlights turned on. Very difficult to see the road, right? The rain-slicked road is almost a perfect mirror. The beams (which are electromagnetic radiation like radar waves) from the car headlights bounce away from you.

However, if there are lots of "hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts" in the road then you can see much better (like a radar receiver), because the car's lights are being bounced back into your eyes. For the same reason that you can easily see a bumpy rain-slicked road, it is much easier for a radar to detect a F-35 with bumpy surfaces.

Finally, the F-35 was always intended to be an economy-model stealth fighter. The U.S. military will not redesign the F-35's round engine nozzles. The U.S. already has the F-22. There is no point in redesigning the F-35 until it looks like a F-22. There wouldn't be any cost savings.

China's J-20 Mighty Dragon is a very different story. It is China's premier stealth fighter and its design won't be finalized until about 2018. It is likely the Chinese will alter the J-20 Mighty Dragon design in the next seven years to eliminate its partial weakness from "some curvature of the sides" and round engine nozzles. In 2018, do not be surprised to see a finalized J-20 Mighty Dragon that matches the F-22 in all-aspect stealth and with flattened engine nozzles.

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My January 22, 2011 post:

My estimate of J-20's RCS is 0.005-0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db)

From the front, the J-20 matches the F-22's stealth profile. While the J-20 is flying at you, the incremental increase in area from its canards is minimal (e.g. look at a piece of paper edge-wise; you only see a line). Also, the J-20's canards are probably made of composite material, coated with RAM, and curve-shaped to deflect radar waves. For all intents and purposes, the J-20 has a F-22 RCS frontal profile of 0.0001 m2.

From the rear, with its circular saw-toothed engine nozzles, the J-20 looks like the F-35 and it should have a similar rear RCS of 0.005 m2.

In conclusion, depending on your point of view, the J-20's RCS ranges from 0.005 to 0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db).

From Global Security:
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Radar Cross Section (RCS) / RCS (m2) / RCS (dB)

  1. automobile 100 20
  2. B-52 100
  3. B-1(A/B) 10
  4. F-15 25
  5. Su-27 15
  6. cabin cruiser 10 10
  7. Su-MKI 4
  8. Mig-21 3
  9. F-16 5
  10. F-16C 1.2
  11. man 1 0
  12. F-18 1
  13. Rafale 1
  14. B-2 0.75 ?
  15. Typhoon 0.5
  16. Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
  17. B-2 0.1 ?
  18. A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
  19. bird 0.01 -20
  20. F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
  21. F-117 0.003
  22. insect 0.001 -30
  23. F-22 0.0001 -40
  24. B-2 0.0001 -40

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I said the J-20 canards were irrelevant for four reasons:

1. Composite material composition

2. RAM coating

3. Curved surface to deflect radar waves

4. Small incremental increase in surface area

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Ranking of world stealth fighters:

1. F-22 0.0001 m2

2. J-20 0.005-0.0001 m2

3. F-35 0.005 m2

4. French Rafale 1 m2

5. Russian Pak-Fa (or T-50) 3 m2

6. F-16 5 m2
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
For the first time some one actually do modelling and confounded all those wannabe expert This sentence is probably the gist or spirit of the article. I like it when he said "The cobbler know his craft" and yet we have 30 pages of discussion about why cannard is bad for stealth
Seems like the Cobbler knows his craft. The Air Power Australia modeling shows some very credible ‘Low Observability’ results.

Take, for instance, the canard: forewings close to the nose of the aircraft that provide maneuverability. According to Mr. Aboulafia, “There’s no better way of guaranteeing a radar reflection and compromise of stealth” than adding canards to the aircraft.

What is the difference between an elevator and a canard, apart from the location on the aircraft? Each has a leading edge, a trailing edge, and a tip alignment, so as long as the rules of alignment are observed, there should be no difference. The Air Power Australia simulations do show specular returns from geometric alignments, as is common with all ‘stealth’ aircraft. These are tactically managed with flight-path directional
control.


Air Power Australia’s application of the Laws of Physics to the J-20 Physical Optic simulation analysis produces facts. Opinions that ignore the facts produce hubristic [Hubristic: Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance] statements.

To conclude, here is a very perceptive quotation from McGeorge “Mac” Bundy, National Security Advisor to the Kennedy and Johnson administrations:

“There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris”.
 
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Blitzo

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F-35 is a fifth generation in the same way that the Panavia Tornado is a third generation. In principle it counts, but in reality it is not so exciting.

Wasn't Tornado 4th generation..?
 
time to ignore that guy's annoying, unconstructive ramblings and get this thread back on track. i only even bothered to reply him solely cuz there aren't any new updates or developments lately.

thanks martian for the amazing post. let's continue the discussions on the j-20 and your new findings. and blitzio thx for the effort and those nice nice posts, but i think it's bout time we should all try to ignore fulcrum the next time he posts. hes an energy drain
 
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