J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Air Force Brat said:

Thats a very astute observation Nike X, and the F-22 will likely remain the benchmark for air superiority fighter aircraft for at least the next decade, probably longer. The J-20 does represent some very novel thinking on the part of Chengdu, and is the first indigenous air superiority aircraft in China, while it is in some respects unconventional, Dr. Song and his design team have come up with what many on our forum believe to be a winner, pugacheve-diver had translated an early paper by Dr. Song in April of 2011. I believe the engineer had posted a link for me, but it is a very outstanding and honest assessment of the F-22 and how the F-22 had influenced the design of the J-20. Many of my early notions about the J-20 were changed by this outstanding and incitefull paper! I want to say it was post 1624 on the previous thread?

Click to expand...

yes F-22 remains the benchmark still, in the case of other jets for two main reasons

F119 still is the top engine.

Russia admits the IR control of 117 is not as efficient as still they would like and remains a problem to tackle
and as long as J-20 has no TVC and supercruise it won`t achieve niether the RCS or speed require to catch up with F-22

F-22 test pilot Paul Metz:
"-All aircraft experience a loss of control effectiveness at supersonic speeds. To generate the same maneuver supersonically as subsonically, the controls must be deflected further. This, in turn, results in a big increase in supersonic trim drag and a subsequent loss in acceleration and turn performance-"

Check the word big increase in supersonic trim drag as J-20 achieves supercruise it requieres the pitch control canards to deflect further than at subsonic speeds so TVC nozzles are required to reduce its RCS and since J-20 is not B-2 haha it reminds me something i read before its RCS will increase as long as it uses canards and any aerodynamic control surface to control the jet.


However once they achieve the engine they will catch up.

So yeah you are right F-22 still is the yardstick in 5th generation aircraft however i would say the lack of IRST and helmet mounted sight is a big flaw in thinking as the recent Eurofighter vs F-22 mock combat has shown

Can't the J-20 can change pitch without using its canards?

Air Force Brat said:

Thats a very astute observation Nike X, and the F-22 will likely remain the benchmark for air superiority fighter aircraft for at least the next decade, probably longer. The J-20 does represent some very novel thinking on the part of Chengdu, and is the first indigenous air superiority aircraft in China, while it is in some respects unconventional, Dr. Song and his design team have come up with what many on our forum believe to be a winner, pugacheve-diver had translated an early paper by Dr. Song in April of 2011. I believe the engineer had posted a link for me, but it is a very outstanding and honest assessment of the F-22 and how the F-22 had influenced the design of the J-20. Many of my early notions about the J-20 were changed by this outstanding and incitefull paper! I want to say it was post 1624 on the previous thread?

Click to expand...

Actually I have located Dr Song's article and am reading through it

NikeX said:

Actually I have located Dr Song's article and am reading through it

Click to expand...

Great, let me know what you think, he echoes many of your concerns about the powerplants but also has some great insight on the Raptor and talks quite extensively as I recall about the distant coupled canards.

kyanges said:

Can't the J-20 can change pitch without using its canards?

Click to expand...

Like prior aft mounted deltas, the J-20 is equipped with flaperons and elevons, the distant coupled canards work in concert with the more conventional control surfaces, one of the innovations that Dr. Song is particularly proud of is the all flying canards, which are more aggresive in their range of deflection and their distant coupling increases their leverage, he felt that would compensate for the lack of TVC if those engines proved to be unavailable, which to date they have. The forward fuselage also generates a considerable amount of lift and you will notice the canards are deflected downwards at times during moderate alpha manuevering. The Flight Control System incorporates a lot of aerodynamic tweaks to achieve a very fine flying aircraft by all observation.

WS-15A will be ready in 2016-2017

J-20 & J-10's

NikeX said:

And the problems are what? There is nothing wrong with the engines or airframe so other than this solvable problem with onboard oxygen generation what problems are you talking about?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it 'solvable' either until it's actually been solved ...........

antiterror13 said:

WS-15A will be ready in 2016-2017

Click to expand...

That sounds about right. I vaguely remember "Maya" saying it would take about 10 years from high-altitude core testing to being used in service. Rumor-wise, so far things have gone according to plan, maybe even a bit ahead of schedule. If it doesn't enter service by 2019, then there is a problem, but if it does enter service by 2016-2017 that'll be great.

WS-15 is the most complex engine PRC has ever done. Its not going to be easy.

PS: can anyone confirm WS-15 is done by a XAE/CAC combo and not Shenyang-Liming?

Hyperwarp said:

That sounds about right. I vaguely remember "Maya" saying it would take about 10 years from high-altitude core testing to being used in service. Rumor-wise, so far things have gone according to plan, maybe even a bit ahead of schedule. If it doesn't enter service by 2019, then there is a problem, but if it does enter service by 2016-2017 that'll be great.

WS-15 is the most complex engine PRC has ever done. Its not going to be easy.

PS: can anyone confirm WS-15 is done by a XAE/CAC combo and not Shenyang-Liming?

Click to expand...

More importantly, when will we actually hear any news about the WS-15. The last mention had to have been 2 years ago.