J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

flateric beat me to this, just want to say i'm with him on the Salyut issue

i've been on the AL-31 camp since day one, and evidence has only enhanced this assertion

i want to iterate though that, this does not mean as something bad for China or its engine development
China needs all the help she can get, only blind faith would reject outside assistance on something you struggle on

China is pragmatic enough to see this

Lion said:

Why not? WS-10 has already enter mass production and utilise in many platform and even make it into many prototype.

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because perhaps the AL-31 is more reliable?

Lion said:

I don't think so... A lot of times, media just trying to paint China can't do anything by themselves and need somebody helps.

Remember how media try to paint J-20 design is assigned by Mikoyan with passing Mig 1.44 blueprint or certain kind of assist to help China build the J-20 prototype. Because western media and anti-China group can't believe China has advanced so much.

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ta hell with that. you can think what you want - I'm not pushing on you. I just tell what I know.
You seemingly mixing patriotism with pragmatism.
Regarding MiG staff involvement in Project 718 (whenever it occurred and in what form) - did you notice that top brass from both sides deny everything, while people at CDF and SDF joking about 'hairy' people 'getting our wages' - the same things happening here - some clues given, but no further comments

flateric said:

ta hell with that. you can think what you want - I'm not pushing on you. I just tell what I know.
You seemingly mixing patriotism with pragmatism.
Regarding MiG staff involvement in Project 718 (whenever it occurred and in what form) - did you notice that top brass from both sides deny everything, while people at CDF and SDF joking about 'hairy' people 'getting our wages' - the same things happening here - some clues given, but no further comments

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MIkoyan has everything to lose if they really help China in J-20 project. It doesn't make sense. And how much China can paid for Mikoyan consultation? When comes to military project, especially dealing with foreigners. China will always be stingy. It doesn't make sense to make these few bucks and lost the big picture in near future.

Finacial wise and long term effect wise. It just doesn't make sense all those talk about Salyut or Mikoyan assist for J-20. Or you are trying to tell me Russian are stupid?

Mikoyan already lost almost everything after E-721 lost to T-50 and LFMS was deleted from GPV-2020
second, we can talk of ex-MiG staff - certain individuals. third, they may share only what they allowed to share and what they think will not have long-term impact. remember how often 'hairy' mentiomned in famous huzhigeng revelations?
regarding China interest to some substitute till WS-15 arrives to the scene - that's fact, not my guesses. Article 117S has export passport and cleared for export, while AL-31FM3 is not and now being modified to pass restrictionsб as Chinese are interested in it.
(btw, do you think that Yakovlev lost everything helping to design L-15? and whose names put in L-15 patent?)

Lion said:

The problem is Russian are not interested in just selling few engines, especially a rival for it aircraft industries.

Remember China try to buy few Su-33 for evaluation instead of 50 reported by Russian and in the end , the deal break down.

I don't think China is interested to commit buying few hundred engines which they pose to use WS-15 in near future. That is precisely why J-20 using a Russian upthrust engines is very unlikely. It is even more unthinkable Salyut will work with CAC on engines issue. Salyut can't be that stupid to help a rival compete engines sales with them in near future?

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If Salyut and CAC, or Russia and China, want to make $money$, then they compete. They can buy ipads, and all sorts of cool stuff this way. But if they want to survive, China and Russia will cooperate!

paintgun said:

because perhaps the AL-31 is more reliable?

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How so? How many J-10s using Al-31 crashed? Compared to how many using WS-10A?

flateric said:

ta hell with that. you can think what you want - I'm not pushing on you. I just tell what I know.
You seemingly mixing patriotism with pragmatism.
Regarding MiG staff involvement in Project 718 (whenever it occurred and in what form) - did you notice that top brass from both sides deny everything, while people at CDF and SDF joking about 'hairy' people 'getting our wages' - the same things happening here - some clues given, but no further comments

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If you have read those posts carefully, you would have noticed the hints that those "hairy" people are Chinese citizens and not foreign experts.

Lion said:

But from the progress of WS-10A, I will say the engine as AL-31 on J20 is very remote.

From J-15, J-11b to prototype of J-10B all using WS-10A. It's proven WS-10 has enter mass production and proven to be the workhorse of PLAAF/PLANAF. The engine on J-20 is very likely to be domestic tinker version of WS-10 series probably with upthrust /overclock.

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Is it a solid fact or your wishful thinking

Engineer said:

How so? How many J-10s using Al-31 crashed? Compared to how many using WS-10A?

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I don't know statistics of J-10 using AL-31FN vs. using WS-10A and crash statistics for both. Seems that this statistics caused CAC to buy 123 more AL-31FNs in July 2011 with option of 127 more after 2013. Seems also that RD-93 satisfies them too.

flateric said:

I don't know statistics of J-10 using AL-31FN vs. using WS-10A and crash statistics for both. Seems that this statistics caused CAC to buy 123 more AL-31FNs in July 2011 with option of 127 more after 2013. Seems also that RD-93 satisfies them too.

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Those engine are used to replace existing engine in current fleet because of the short life of russian engine!