J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Engineer

Major
The American engineers' original intention was that: canards are too complicated, it takes up too much space internally, especially that it creates too much drag that it kills F22's emphasis on supersonic cruise. When you have unhuman level engine and really good materials and especially highly mature avoinics, why create further troubles for ourself. F22 emphasizes on supersonic speed, utilizing its swept butterfly wings and F119 makes it reach perfect harmony. In the late 90s, the Americans concluded this would dominate the world theatre for 20-30 years.

Doesn't matter if its close coupling or distant coupling, both are detrimental to thenext generation fighter, why so?

To be Continuted.....

The American engineers' original intention was this: canards require sophisicated flight control systems, makes it difficult to design internal weapon bays, most importantly it can't meet F22's demands on having superiority over the enemies at all sonic speeds. When you have unhumanly powerful engine, really good materials and especially highly matured avoinics, why create further troubles for ourself? F22 emphasizes on supersonic speed, utilizing its highly swept saucer wings and F119 engines makes it achieves perfect harmony. In the late 90s, researches by Americans concluded this design would dominate the world theatre for 20-30 years.

Regardless of close-coupling or control canard, both are detrimental to the next generation fighter. Why is this?
 

no_name

Colonel
I think after all the translation is done we should group all part of the translated article together in one post (we can pick the best translations.)
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
I just read the Chinese version, very technical indeed. And it's translation must be very tiring, I admire you for it. I don't know about your background, but the author alluded many fancy terms in airfoil design and stealth technology, but didn't explain fully what they are and how they really work.

I can give you two reference articles on
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and
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. So I hope these would give you a good background information in this field and understand better what he is trying to say. Don't get confused by the math, you just need the jest of what going on to understand the stealth shaping part of the J-20 article. (Btw, I'm a RF engineer so I know a bit of radars and shaping related stuff in his article, but the aerodynamic still is beyond me.)
 

Engineer

Major
Chapter 3 - The Might and Raq Power of F22


Chapter 3 - The Might and Raq Power of F22

Rafael used close-coupling canards (again, means canards being close to the delta wing), ignore trim and pitch controllability. The two canards provice great vortex lift, boost agility, but its trimming ability is minimial, resulting in great subsonic performance and bad supersonic performance. But take note of (placement of) the canards on the LERX, the French did a very good job there.

It is well known that the close-coupling canards used by the Gripen and Rafael ignores trimming and pitch controllability. The two canards provice great vortex lift, boost agility, but the trimming ability is minimial. F22 caters the need for both subsonic agility and especially supersonic maneouverability. It emphasizes on taking good position through its sheer speed, even without turning on afterburners it could supermaneouvre at around Mach 1.5. (I wondered, won't those pilots die maneouvring at high G's while maintain speed of Mach 1.5)!

In supersonic maneouvres, roll maneouvre at supersonic speed is difficult to achieve regardless of F22, T50 and J20. But it's great for escape and acquring geat positions in dogfights. But even 5th generations have difficulties opening their weapon bay during a roll at supersonic speed to launch a missile. To achieve first-shoot ability, sustained turn-rate under supersonic speed would be the most important, and this is F22's greatest strong point!

Many people argue supercruise exists for a long time, like the Mig25, although it's still only high thrust engines with temporarily turning on afterburners to gain momentum to achieve short term super cruise without having afterburner on the whole time. Even the British Lightning can achieve supercruise at Mach 1.1, some even say that J-12 could cruise at Mach 0.94 without afterburners, claiming to be super subsonic cruising.

But all those are fake supercruise without exception, especially that none can perform maneouvres while maintaining supersonic speed. F22 could perform exotic maneouvres while flying at Mach 1.5. On the contrary, the famous Mig 25 has archaic trimming, making it very sluggish in supersonic speeds. The Americans described it as "useful for escaple, useless for attack."

Quoting from expert again, "F22's maneouvrability at supersonic speed is one of the important design criterias, it is also the determining symbol for generation gap. Apart from the supercruise, excellent acceleration and climb performance, sustained turn-rate at supersonic speed is also greatly improved. From open sources, this plane could achieve 6.5G at M1.7. Considering F15 sustained turn-rate at similar conditions is far inferior, and Su27 could only achieve this in mid-altitude and at speed of M0.9, this is undoubtedly a suprising achievement".

It could achieve such high-G turn in supersonic because of its insane engines, but this is also credited to its lift-drag ratio and trimming ability.

Speaking of lift-drag ratio, it is not diffuclt to understand; To sustain a high-G turn requires lift from the wings, but drag comes along and grow exponentially (the value of drag coeffecient to wings positive angle of attack is exponentially related, and inversely related to the wingspan). If the drag coeffecient is too big, drag increases too rapidly and rapidly uses up thrust of the engines. Although the plane could still pull off high-G maneouvres, it cannot be sustained because the engine will not provide enough thrust. This is the reason why Mirage III's instantenous turn-rate is good but the sustained turn-rate is low. At today's aeronautic level, it is not difficult to develop high lift-drag ratio wings or wings with good supersonic performance. However, designing wings achieving both objectives requires enormous efforts. This is something that F22 should be proud about!

Trimming ability is often neglected by people. Wing's high lift is fundamental to high-G maneouvres, but as lift increases, so does pitching moment. If the aircraft cannot provide sufficient moment for counter-balance, it could easily flips backward and lose control; or nose-down moment could prevent the desired angle-of-attack from being reached. Especially during supersonic flights, as the centre of lift travels toward the aft, there is a significant nose-down moment. So supersonic manevoures require significant trimming ability. The plane famous for supersonic speed, the Mig 25, cannot perform supersonic manevoures because of its trimming limits. When it cruises in supersonic speed, its horizontal tail's already rotated to its limit, with very little margin left for maneouvres. Although the airframe is capable of handling much more G forces, it can only perform up to 3G at Mach 2.

In another word, F22 is scary not only because of its stealth, but rather its insane supercruise and supermaneouvre capability at supersonic speed. During military exercises, F15s and F16s have difficulties beating F22 even when the F22 carries corner reflectors. F22 could use its speed and supersonic maneuverability to gain position to launch missiles, and its sheer speed also add a lot of momentum to its missiles. This implies a first shot ability, and even if the missiles miss, F22 could exit and occupy another good position to attack. 3rd generations aircraft couldn't keep pace with F22's rhythm.

In those exercises, pilots say that "when engaging the F22, its game over as soon as its enters supercruise. We can't catch up even with afterburner. If we keep chasing then it's bingo (out of oil) and the exercises would be over. We would have to quickly return to refuel by tanker planes, while F22 still has lots of fuel remaining."
(It would be great to find the original statement.)
 
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Engineer

Major
"This thing is born for speed"

To summarize: trimming and lift-drag ratio determines supercruise and supersonic maneuverbility, while vortex determines subsonic agility and lift. However, in carnard layouts, the two criterias contradict one another. Yet for a 4th generation plane, it has to be best in both criterias.


"Canard layout's advantage only exists on the enemies"

"To solve trimming issue, one way is via relaxed stability, moving the centre-of-lift to the front. This way, even when the center-of-lift shifts toward the back, it will still be close to the centre-of-gravity, and the nose-down moment will be relatively small. However, the plane in subsonic maneouvres at high positive angle-of-attack will still face trimming problem - this time balancing the pitch-up moment. The highly exaggerate close-coupling canard layout have canards placed close to centre-of-gravity, resulting in poor pitch controllability. F16 head chief once said, the best place for canards are on enemy planes." Square-Square

So, how do the Chinese researchers decast this curse?

To the Chinese engineers, carnard layout's benefits are exremely tempting. But how is the contradiction to be solved?

End part 1.
 
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s7s7s7

New Member
The introduction of stealth as a standard for 5th gen jets is a new challenge. Although the Russians proposed the plasma stealth plan, it is still too far from being practical and operational. The internal bays enormity and the S-like intake will definitely cause increase in size. (No idea what he is trying to say here. Maybe he meant the size of J20 is a challenge in achieving stealth.)

The author means internal bays and curving intake demand a larger size airframe, in other words, heavier design.


This design's vortex lift is emphasized on the outer edge of the delta, leading edge extension, and pneumatic coupling of the wing; the diamond shaped head was adopted due to its stealthiness and stability when flying in large angle of attack in side angles (no idea how to explain this, I just understand it as being super stable when performing exotic moves during dog fights)

You're right.
 

s7s7s7

New Member
Despite being a hardcore military fan, I still have to admit that I can't understand half of the technical shit that I'm translating. Please feel free to correct me, as I'm already lost in many areas.

Despite being a hardcore military fan, I still have to admit that I can't understand half of the technical shit that I'm translating. Please feel free to correct me, as I'm already lost in many areas.

The author is not a pro, he's just a fan like you. So don't take it too seriously.
I suggest caring more about technical words.

the outer edge of the delta, leading edge extension, and pneumatic coupling of the wing
-> aerodynamic coupling between strake, canard and wing
 

Geographer

Junior Member
Super work translating, engineer and pugachev_diver. We non-Mandarin speaking members appreciate your time and effort. :) The author seems very knowledge about the decision-making and research behind the Chinese 5th generation fighter plane, not just the J-20 and SAC's entry as well. It's fascinating to read, thanks again.
 

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
Indeed. There were so many projects and researches that have been sacked more numerous reasons. Many were not even known to people. Although these planes did not come into fruition, they did serve as groundwork researches that educated the engineers in the Chinese aviation industry. The British and German aviation industry are great juxtapositions to the Chinese's successes. The gap in an industry would often make the engineers rusty in their professional knowledge, like the lack to demand for the British industry over the last 20 years, and even worse for those longer gaps, like the Germans and the Russians. The Russians had similar situations where they can't even build a plane advanced as the Chinese counterpart, which was a huge shock for me. The Chinese still had to buy and copy from them as recent as 10-15 years ago. Similar things happened to the Russian ship building industry. Now they can't even build an aircraft carrier. Their submarine production rate is low and the quality is bad.
Now we can see why a lot of military industries cannot fruit over night with big budgets.
 
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