J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
本报讯　1月20日，隐身技术航空科技重点实验室在中航工业沈阳所通过中航工业评审验收并揭牌。该实验室成为中航工业依照国家重点实验室标准在隐身技术专业领域建立的第一个航空科技重点实验室。

隐身技术航空科技重点实验室聘请国内20多位资深专家组成学术委员会，不断强化实验室的学术水平和研究能力，积极开展对外交流合作，将全力打造为隐身设计/测试行业领域内具有国际先进、国内领先水平的开放式研究平台，国内一流的研究基地和学术中心。

一直以来，沈阳所始终瞄准航空科技和国家航空隐身装备发展的前沿需求，围绕航空隐身技术的战略发展目标和武器装备的隐身技术发展趋势，加强科研环境建设，依托强大的科研实力，不断展开关键技术研究，使我国航空装备隐身特性及生存力研究实力大幅提升。
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source from ifeng.com, talk about January 20, the mainly stealth technology of aviation Laboratory of Shenyang Institute, assessment and acceptance by AVIC and inaugurated. The laboratory as in the AVIC standards in accordance with the State main Laboratory of stealth technology expertise to establish the first main Laboratory of Aviation Technology.

main Laboratory of stealth technology to employ domestic aviation science and technology more than 20 academic committee composed of senior experts, continue to strengthen the academic level and research laboratory capacity, and actively carry out foreign exchange and cooperation, the efforts to build the stealth design / testing industry within the field of international advanced The leading domestic level open research platform, the domestic first-class research base and academic centers.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Staff member
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rhino123 said:
So whats the point of designing a large and heavy fighter that is inferior in everyway when compared to J-20? I can imagine why they would want a light fighter, with stealth capability but this?

For export purposes?
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I should've probably specified but Shenyang's design didn't even make it pass the prototype stage. Their version of J-XX was defeated pretty early on and they joined hands with Chengdu to work on the J-20 afterwards.

You mean WS-10G for now, or permanently? And by #7, what does that imply? I wonder if we will get to know more about the engines' progress, any additional information. Don't we all wish we get to know all the specs? (I don't know why but we suddenly sound like boys during their puberty being exposed to internet porn for the first time)
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WS-10G will be used for the testing phase and the WS-15, with huzhigeng claims to employ 3d thrust-vectoring, will be used on the final plane. As for the specs I don't think they'd be out for another 5 to 7 years.

How I wonder you guys talking J-16 like it's a real plane out there? From what I know, J-16 is just a speculation or more likely just a rumor. Do you guys have any proof that the project exists?
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What we know for a fact is that the designation of J-16 has already been taken by the PLAAF. Speculations on what, exactly, the plane is ranges from a indigenious version of the Su-30mkk to a "Silent Flanker".

Just FYI everything huzhigeng said should be taken with a grain of salt. Despite the fact that he was mostly correct about the J-20 he could very well be wrong about some of the plane's specs and performances. The reason I posted his speculations here is because history has proven that his speculations are more likely to be correct than your run of the mill fan-boy speculations.
 
C

Centrist

Junior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

johnqh said:
First, I feel like I am repeating myself: J-20 does not use AL-31! Take a look at the J-11B photo with one AL-31 and one WS-10A, and you will see the difference on the rear body design between those two engines. They have different length and the WS-10A nozzle is significantly larger.

The two J-20, with black and silver nozzle, have the nozzles of the same size and the rear body design did not change at all. That means those two engines are the same series, just different variant. Time will prove that I am right. The black one is WS-10A, the silver one is WS-10G (150kn level).

Next, let's review the WS-10 development.

WS-10 is not a copy of Russian engine. Rather, it was developed based on CFM-56 core (the same core used by F-110). If you look at the specs, you will see significant difference between WS-10 and AL-31.

From the beginning, WS-10 was designed using western standard on maintenance. China was well aware of the heavy maintenance requirement of short life of Russian engines (due to the Russian wartime doctrine). WS-10A has gone through extensive testing before the certification - several months of continuous running.

The reason that it wasn't used in the Chinese fighters was not quality reasons, but rather "slow spool-up time". Meaning it takes twice as long to spin up the engine as AL-31. This can be a critical problem when the fighter is cruising and suddenly under attack. However, that was the last news several years ago (2008?).

Assuming this problem was fixed, it will still require a lot of changes to the aircraft. When F-16 changes from F-100 to F-110, the intake must be redesigned to allow more airflow. The difference between WS-10A and AL-31F is even larger (again, take a look at the J-11 photo with one of each). Possibly the whole engine bay must be re-designed. Same with J-10.

In any case, we already see photos of J-11B with two WS-10A engines, so it is in production and in service.

J-10 will be much later. Re-designing J-11 engine bays only involves the lower half of the airframe. Re-designing J-10 pretty much means re-designing the whole body.

And J-15 will have to wait even longer. For an engine to be used in an ocean environment, it must be tested and modified against erosion. AL-31 was already certified. It will take maybe two years to fit WS-10A for J-15.
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No no no no no. One of the J-20s are CLEARLY powered by a AL-31. It has the longer nozzle with dark overlapping pedals and close examination shows that it also has the blue flexible pedals further up. That is not the WS-10 which has silvery (not black) and shorter, and has no blue flexible pedals. Anyone on this forum will agree with me.

I never said the WS-10 was a copy of a AL-31, it clearly isn't, but these "specs" you talk about cannot be substantiated. No one knows the performance of the WS-10 outside AVIC and PLAAF.

And the WS-10 was delayed for years due to production quality control problems, Shenyang even admitted that.

The fact that we cannot see a difference in the prototypes intakes does not indicate that they have the same engine. The J-11B has used both the AL-31F and WS-10, yet the intakes are identical.

In conclusion, one J-20 is powered by AL-31F, the other by an unknown engine. My point has always been.....if china is so confident in WS-10 (after all, it was certified 5 years ago) why didn't they put them on BOTH of the prototypes. Apparently the are still some problems that we aren't aware of, and China is using them on the J-11BS and J-11B simply because they have no alternative.
 
J

johnqh

Junior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Centrist said:
No no no no no. One of the J-20s are CLEARLY powered by a AL-31. It has the longer nozzle with dark overlapping pedals and close examination shows that it also has the blue flexible pedals further up. That is not the WS-10 which has silvery (not black) and shorter, and has no blue flexible pedals. Anyone on this forum will agree with me.

I never said the WS-10 was a copy of a AL-31, it clearly isn't, but these "specs" you talk about cannot be substantiated. No one knows the performance of the WS-10 outside AVIC and PLAAF.

And the WS-10 was delayed for years due to production quality control problems, Shenyang even admitted that.

The fact that we cannot see a difference in the prototypes intakes does not indicate that they have the same engine. The J-11B has used both the AL-31F and WS-10, yet the intakes are identical.

In conclusion, one J-20 is powered by AL-31F, the other by an unknown engine. My point has always been.....if china is so confident in WS-10 (after all, it was certified 5 years ago) why didn't they put them on BOTH of the prototypes. Apparently the are still some problems that we aren't aware of, and China is using them on the J-11BS and J-11B simply because they have no alternative.
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If you look at each engine individually, you wouldn't know which one is WS-10A and which one is AL-31F. However, with them installed on the same airframe, it is clear that the airframe must be different.

We may not notice the difference in intake, but the if the black one is AL-31F and silver one is WS-10G, the rear body difference should be obvious (again, look at the J-11 picture). For one, the LENGTH is different.

If you believe the black nozzle is AL-31F, then the silver one must be also AL-31, just a different model. If you believe the silver one is WS-10 series, then the black one is also WS-10 series.

Edit: I take it back. The black one is AL-31F

Checked the photos again. AL-31F has 16 panels. WS-10A has 18. The black nozzle has 16 panels.

The above logic still stands. So now I believe the silver one is also AL-31F, just with modified external panels (which is for aerodynamics only, the internal panels are for controlling the engine jet stream).
 
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Deino

Deino

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Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

johnqh said:
...
Checked the photos again. AL-31F has 16 panels. WS-10A has 18. The black nozzle has 16 panels.
...
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So we should take and count the number of pedals at the silver nozzle ... a WS-10-version "should" or "could" at least have the same or similar nozzle.

Deino
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
The problem is, you might want to decrease the number of petals for maintenance purposes if the higher thrust of a "WS-10G" causes more wear and tear.
 
C

Centrist

Junior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

The fact of the matter is that we know very little about China's engine program, and there is a great deal of confusion regarding the designations. Here is what we know:

WS-10-Certified in 2006, started appearing on J-11B and J-11BS in 2009.
WS-10A-Still in development? Flight testing? Has different number of static vanes, gearbox repositioned, some changes to nozzle. More thrust??? Designed for J-10B.
WS-10D or G-Enhanced thrust. Possibly thrust vectoring (High altitude testing phase?)
WS-15-F119-class engine with thrust vectoring. (Simulated high altitude testing phase).
 
J

johnqh

Junior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Deino said:
So we should take and count the number of pedals at the silver nozzle ... a WS-10-version "should" or "could" at least have the same or similar nozzle.

Deino
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Of course I tried...but we don't have a rear view photo of the silver nozzle J-20.
 
D

dingyibvs

Senior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Deino said:
So we should take and count the number of pedals at the silver nozzle ... a WS-10-version "should" or "could" at least have the same or similar nozzle.

Deino
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Someone on CD counted it, it's 16.
 
maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

to count that is useless, AL-31F/FN with 16, J-20 silver nozzle with 16, every body have known this, but J-20 silver nozzle is different out look, it's not AL-31F/FN or WS-10a either.
 
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