J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Centrist

Junior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Martian said:
Someone was making a ridiculous claim that China's jet engine technology was terrible and a Chinese supercruising engine will require an overhaul after a "few hours." Total nonsense. You should ask that people stop posting absurd claims so that I don't have to get mad and refute it.



From my post #1041, as related by Mr. Xu Yongling, we know that the J-20 "possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability." What is the name and type of the Chinese supercruise engine? I don't think anyone (outside of China's military) knows for sure yet.
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I wouldn't have too much confidence in China's engine capabilities. They fumbled around with the WS-10 form 1986 to 2009, and still don't have enough confidence in it to put it on the J-10 or J-15. Besides, one of the J-20 prototypes has a Russian engine, if the WS-10G or whatever engine the other prototype uses is so reliable and mature then why build an entire prototype with another engine.
 
rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Centrist said:
I wouldn't have too much confidence in China's engine capabilities. They fumbled around with the WS-10 form 1986 to 2009, and still don't have enough confidence in it to put it on the J-10 or J-15. Besides, one of the J-20 prototypes has a Russian engine, if the WS-10G or whatever engine the other prototype uses is so reliable and mature then why build an entire prototype with another engine.
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Putting another engine in the prototype was a contingency plan. Afterall China is quite new to advance engine.

Plus everyone had to start somewhere. The Chinese might have a hard start with WS-10, but by now, one would think that the Chinese learned something from their experience with WS-10.
 
Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Centrist said:
I wouldn't have too much confidence in China's engine capabilities. They fumbled around with the WS-10 form 1986 to 2009, and still don't have enough confidence in it to put it on the J-10 or J-15. Besides, one of the J-20 prototypes has a Russian engine, if the WS-10G or whatever engine the other prototype uses is so reliable and mature then why build an entire prototype with another engine.
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To determine that an engine type is reliable and mature will require probably at least 10 years of operational service. WS-10 do not have that long a operational history. Nothing wrong with not taking any risk with a new engine and opting for an engine with more than 10 years history, in the testing of a new aircraft prototype.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Another Scientist from PLAAF was awarded certification of merit for extending the service life of AL 31 Engine So the logic goes If China can extend the life of Russian engine why not WS10A Here is the article

Re: Ws10a
Courtesy of Lin Dan from CMF

I read this news long time ago but didn't bother to post it. they even show the plant with clean and immaculate floor. This is really remarkable achievement doubling the service life from 900 hr to 1500hr

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010

Jane's Defence Weekly


China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev

Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine

The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

This is the foto of Maintenance depot
 

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A

airsuperiority

Captain
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Hendrik_2000 said:
Another Scientist from PLAAF was awarded certification of merit for extending the service life of AL 31 Engine So the logic goes If China can extend the life of Russian engine why not WS10A Here is the article

Re: Ws10a
Courtesy of Lin Dan from CMF

I read this news long time ago but didn't bother to post it. they even show the plant with clean and immaculate floor. This is really remarkable achievement doubling the service life from 900 hr to 1500hr

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010

Jane's Defence Weekly


China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev

Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine

The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".
Click to expand...

I think this article is also saying the Chinese can give less of a shit for the AL-31F, but more on solving quality issues generally, and more importantly, paving the way for doing the same for Chinese engines.
 
Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

airsuperiority said:
I think this article is also saying the Chinese can give less of a shit for the AL-31F, but more on solving quality issues generally, and more importantly, paving the way for doing the same for Chinese engines.
Click to expand...

Another way to look at it is China's engine experts have used the knowledge they've gathered from developing the various new engines and used it to extend the lifespan of the AL-31F.
 
J

johnqh

Junior Member
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Centrist said:
I wouldn't have too much confidence in China's engine capabilities. They fumbled around with the WS-10 form 1986 to 2009, and still don't have enough confidence in it to put it on the J-10 or J-15. Besides, one of the J-20 prototypes has a Russian engine, if the WS-10G or whatever engine the other prototype uses is so reliable and mature then why build an entire prototype with another engine.
Click to expand...

First, I feel like I am repeating myself: J-20 does not use AL-31! Take a look at the J-11B photo with one AL-31 and one WS-10A, and you will see the difference on the rear body design between those two engines. They have different length and the WS-10A nozzle is significantly larger.

The two J-20, with black and silver nozzle, have the nozzles of the same size and the rear body design did not change at all. That means those two engines are the same series, just different variant. Time will prove that I am right. The black one is WS-10A, the silver one is WS-10G (150kn level).

Next, let's review the WS-10 development.

WS-10 is not a copy of Russian engine. Rather, it was developed based on CFM-56 core (the same core used by F-110). If you look at the specs, you will see significant difference between WS-10 and AL-31.

From the beginning, WS-10 was designed using western standard on maintenance. China was well aware of the heavy maintenance requirement of short life of Russian engines (due to the Russian wartime doctrine). WS-10A has gone through extensive testing before the certification - several months of continuous running.

The reason that it wasn't used in the Chinese fighters was not quality reasons, but rather "slow spool-up time". Meaning it takes twice as long to spin up the engine as AL-31. This can be a critical problem when the fighter is cruising and suddenly under attack. However, that was the last news several years ago (2008?).

Assuming this problem was fixed, it will still require a lot of changes to the aircraft. When F-16 changes from F-100 to F-110, the intake must be redesigned to allow more airflow. The difference between WS-10A and AL-31F is even larger (again, take a look at the J-11 photo with one of each). Possibly the whole engine bay must be re-designed. Same with J-10.

In any case, we already see photos of J-11B with two WS-10A engines, so it is in production and in service.

J-10 will be much later. Re-designing J-11 engine bays only involves the lower half of the airframe. Re-designing J-10 pretty much means re-designing the whole body.

And J-15 will have to wait even longer. For an engine to be used in an ocean environment, it must be tested and modified against erosion. AL-31 was already certified. It will take maybe two years to fit WS-10A for J-15.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

johnqh said:
And J-15 will have to wait even longer. For an engine to be used in an ocean environment, it must be tested and modified against erosion. AL-31 was already certified. It will take maybe two years to fit WS-10A for J-15.
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Maybe not that long, if they've been using H-6 as engine testbed for the job.
 
N

no_name

Colonel
Re: China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable nor

Centrist said:
Besides, one of the J-20 prototypes has a Russian engine, if the WS-10G or whatever engine the other prototype uses is so reliable and mature then why build an entire prototype with another engine.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that they already did some test flights before the publicised flight in january with the other engine.
 
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