J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Blitzo

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Re: WS-10 engine has a MTBO of over 500 hours

According to Chinese sources, the WS-10 lasts over 500 hours before an overhaul and not the few hours that you're claiming.

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"The main power plants are two AL-31F engines that provide great maneuverability and thrust. Range can be extended with the in flight refueling probe. Domestic Chinese resources have claimed that the Chinese engine WS-10 with higher mean time between overhaul can also be used, but this is yet to be confirmed by the official sources and sources outside China. Due to the intense flight training in Chinese hands, the average mean time between overhaul of AL-31F was only slightly above 500 hours, significantly lower than its western counterparts, the same problem reportedly encountered by Indian Air Force for its Su-30MKI fleet."

If you're pushing an engine more, like maybe attempting to supercruise, it will last a shorter time?

And 500 hours for WS-10A isn't exactly good either, it's not much better than the Al-31F. I thought one of the biggest advantages the taihang had was a much increased MTBO, and I question the 500+ hour number.
 

Martian

Senior Member
Re: WS-10 engine has a MTBO of over 500 hours

If you're pushing an engine more, like maybe attempting to supercruise, it will last a shorter time?

And 500 hours for WS-10A isn't exactly good either, it's not much better than the Al-31F. I thought one of the biggest advantages the taihang had was a much increased MTBO, and I question the 500+ hour number.

I agree that there will be additional heat and pressure stresses on an engine in supercruise mode. However, the time between overhauls will not drop from over 500 to only a few hours.

Let's say that supercruise wears out the engine twice as fast. The MBTO is in the ballpark of 250 hours. Even at an extreme assumption that supercruise places three times the "wear and tear" on an engine, we're still talking about 167 hours. That is nowhere close to "a few hours."

Only anti-Chinese rumor-mongers believe that nonsense.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
Re: WS-10 engine has a MTBO of over 500 hours

According to Chinese sources, the WS-10 lasts over 500 hours before requiring an overhaul and not the few hours that you're claiming.

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"The main power plants are two AL-31F engines that provide great maneuverability and thrust. Range can be extended with the in flight refueling probe. Domestic Chinese resources have claimed that the Chinese engine WS-10 with higher mean time between overhaul can also be used, but this is yet to be confirmed by the official sources and sources outside China. Due to the intense flight training in Chinese hands, the average mean time between overhaul of AL-31F was only slightly above 500 hours, significantly lower than its western counterparts, the same problem reportedly encountered by Indian Air Force for its Su-30MKI fleet."

That's for AL-31F.

"Due to the intense flight training in Chinese hands, the average mean time between overhaul of AL-31F was only slightly above 500 hours[/B],...."
 

kroko

Senior Member
Re: WS-10 engine has a MTBO of over 500 hours

That's for AL-31F.

"Due to the intense flight training in Chinese hands, the average mean time between overhaul of AL-31F was only slightly above 500 hours[/B],...."

Besides that, wikipedia is not the most reliable source. Anyone can edit it.
 

Martian

Senior Member
WS-class engines have a MTBO of hundreds to thousands of hours

Besides that, wikipedia is not the most reliable source. Anyone can edit it.

I think it is reasonable to say that a Chinese turbofan engine has performance somewhere in the ballpark of an AL-31. Kanwa and others have reported that the Chinese are intent on improving upon the performance specifications of the AL-31 engines that they are familiar with. It is unreasonable to claim, as some extremists do, that China's jet engines become useless after a few hours of supercruise.

Under the Sagan rule, extreme claims require overwhelming proof. The burden now shifts to the person, who is claiming that China's turbofan engines fail after a few hours of supercruise, to provide clearly convincing evidence or to refrain from making such an unbelievable claim in the future.

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"<Kanwa News Dec 10, 2002> Authoritative sources from the Chinese military aviation industry Group One told Kanwa that some major progress had been made in the development of the sub-systems used on the 4th generation stealth fighter, particularly the engine. The WS10A turbofan engines originally designed for J10A by Shenyang Liming Motor Company may very likely be installed on this 4th generation fighter for trial flight. The air test of WS10A had already been completed on SU27SK, including a total 256 test items.

The sources indicated to Kanwa's correspondent that the fundamental performance of the WS10A has already attained the standard of AL31F. The maximum augmented thrust power of AL31FN is 12500kgf, power consumption 0.67kg/kgf.h. Sources based in China also claimed that in streamlining the design, WS10A is even better than AL31FN as it focused on reducing the weight. Meanwhile, the upgrading work paid special attention to the reduction of consumption.

The research of the thrust vector control (TVC) technology has also been going on for a long time. The basic design idea is close to the Russian AL31F-TVN TVC engine. That is, China hopes to largely improve the maneuverability of the engine by adding a TVC nozzle on WS10A. Chinese Aviation experts emphasized that the Chinese version of TVC nozzle currently under development can perform 360 degree rotating. Earlier President Jiang Zemin inspected this project, which is one of the key aviation development programs during the "ninth five-year plan. Television images indicate this TVC nozzle can rotate at a range of +-15 degree, the source says that it has also been planned that the China-made TVC engine would be upgraded at appropriate time and installed on J10A in order to " improve the fighter's short-distance taking-off and landing performance and attain the maneuverability standard of F35."<Kanwa Digest news Zhuhai>"

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"Powerplant: The powerplant currently is a Chinese version of the Soviet Klimov RD-33/93 turbofan engine. Initial testing in 2003 revealed problems with air intake design causing excessive smoke issues, which were reduced by a redesign of the intakes. Further complications were caused by licensing issues with the Soviets refusing to allow sale to Pakistan, which were resolved, although not completely, to allow delivery of the first few planes. There are plans to replace this engine with a Chinese Guizhou WS-13 turbofan engine that has been under development since 2000 to improve the poor MTBO (Mean Time Between Overhaul) of the RD-33/93 of between 300 to 1,000 hours, smoke production and stall characteristics under high angles of attack with many new features. Improved smoke performance and an MTBO of 2,200 hours is a target that has yet to be achieved."

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rAmZd.jpg

A WS-10 engine (with blue flame) being tested in 2005.

Note: Thank you to Wangrong for the pictures.
 
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alvarorivero

New Member
Registered Member
Spies who get caught are hardly the best spies.
I disagree, ones of the best spies ever, where the ones helped Russia obtain atomic weapons:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Cohen_(Soviet_spy)

Obviously they would been even better if they werent caught, but thats irrelevant when the info has already been stolen and delivered.


There is a separate thread dedicated to WS engine:
sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/ws10a-252.html
and for what i make of it, seems like the FWS-10a is doing well, both on terms of thrust and endurance.


But i dont think that it can supercruisse yet, maybe the WS-15 will...
 

Martian

Senior Member
WS-13 has a MTBO of 810 hours

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"Fierce Dragon" motor home is nearing completion

1GgbK.jpg


"Fierce Dragon" is currently being used by the Russian RD33 RD93 improved turbofan engine.
据航空报报道,红湖机械厂2005年全面启动WS13项目的核心机和整机研制任务,推动工厂由生产涡喷型发动机向生产涡扇型发动机的转变。 According to aviation newspaper reported that the Red Lake plant started in 2005 WS13's core mission to develop aircraft and components, promoting the production of turbine jet engine from the factory to produce vortex fan engine change.

WS13核心机的关键部件之一环形火焰筒需要在内腔WS13 one of the key components in the core aircraft fire extinguishers are required cavity ring


进行高温陶瓷加工,这种陶瓷是从未使用过的新材料。High temperature ceramics, which was never used in the new ceramic material. 面对挑战,红湖厂6车间工艺室主任兼陶瓷主管工艺员成文卫勇挑重担,经过多方查阅资料和自行设计工艺参数,终于成功完成了高温火焰筒的陶瓷加工。 Faced with this challenge, the director of the Red Lake plant six Shop for ceramic craft into culture, health and the nation. With various design parameters and data access, fire extinguishers successfully completed a high temperature of the ceramic processing. 结果表明,产品实物的各项技术指标和外观质量都达到了样机标准,个别指标还超过了样机标准。The results showed that the kind of products and various technical indicators have reached the prototype exterior quality standards individual indicators also exceeded the standard prototype.

而早在2003年,关键性的FC-1动力国产As early as in 2003, made a key driving force for the FTC-1 化工Chemical 作就已经开始。For it has begun. 中航一集团宣布,贵州航空发动机研究所配合FC-1的研制工作,开展了涡轮风扇发动机关键技术研究和新型涡轮风扇发动机设计出图等工作,拉开了黎阳 AVIC Group Ⅰ announced that the FTC-1 with the Guizhou Institute of Aero-engine development work. Key Technology launched a turbofan engine turbofan engine design, and a new work plan started hong 公司Company 涡轮风扇发动机研制的序幕。Turbofan engine developed in the district.

FC-1FTC-1 国产Domestic 化发动机——WS-13(RD-33的国产改进型)已经进行3 年。Engine --WS-13 (RD-33 built Improved) has been carried out for three years. 该发动机长4.14米,最大外直径1.02米,交付使用重量1135千克。The engine 4.14 meters long, 1.02 meters in diameter outside the largest, weighing 1,135 kg delivery. 推重比7.8,加力推力86.37千牛,耗油率2.02千克/十牛小时。Hold in esteem than 7.8, 86.37 kN thrust Afterburner, consumption was 2.02 kg / hour 10 cattle. 最大状态中间推力56.75千牛,耗油率0.73/十牛小时。56.75 kN thrust among the largest state, oil consumption cattle 0.73/ 10 hours. 巡航推力51.2千牛,耗油率0.65/十牛小时。51.2 kN thrust cruise, oil consumption cattle 0.65/ 10 hours. 进气量80千克/秒,函道比0.57,涡轮前温度1650K,总压比23。Aeration 80 kg / seconds, more than 0.57 letter Road, turbine temperature of 1650K ago, the total pressure than 23. 大修间隔810小时,总寿命为2200小时。The overhaul interval of 810 hours, with a total life of 2,200 hours. (编者注:该发动机的大修间隔和总使用寿命指标均远远超越RD33发动机)(Editor's Note : The engine and the overhaul interval of life indicators have far exceeded the total engine RD33)

The engine uses a three-string wide solid titanium axial 合金Alloy 的风扇叶片,经两极电化学处理的整体叶盘结构,风扇前有电脑控制的可变弯度导流叶片,扩大风扇稳定工作范围。The fan blades, leaves the overall structure of the bipolar electrochemical treatment. former fans are computer-controlled variable steering guide vane, fans expand the scope of the work. 8级轴流式高压压气机(前三级为可调导流叶片)单级低压涡轮采用空心气冷转子叶片,单级高压涡轮为单晶涡轮叶片和导向器叶片,环形燃烧室,有叶尖间隙控制的空气热交换器,综合数字式全权限控制系统。8 axial pressure compressor (for the former three adjustable guide vane) used hollow-cooled single-stage low-pressure turbine rotor blade. single crystal turbine blades for the high-pressure turbine blade and a guide, annular combustor. a tip clearance control air heat exchanger and integrated digital control system for the whole authority. 齿轮箱和附件位于发动机的下方,性能先进的微型涡轮辅助动力装置。The annex is located below the engine and gear box, advanced micro-turbine auxiliary power devices.

WS- 13的大部分零部件可以利用RD-33的,部分只需略加改良,小部分是新研制的。Most of the parts can be used RD-33 WS-13, some only slightly modified, is a small part of the new development. 外廓尺寸相近,引进了改良后的RD-33的大部分生产工艺设备对一条WP-13生产线进行技术改造,俄方负责培训技术人员和部分工人,培训完一批工人连设备一起运回,安装调试进行生产,合理安排各部件生产进度,交叉并行进行。Contour similar size. The introduction of improved production technology equipment to a RD-33 WP-13 most of the production line technology, Russia responsible for the training of technical staff and some workers, a number of workers have the training equipment shipped back together, installation and testing of production. reasonable arrangements for the various components of production. cross parallel. 由中俄双方在RD-33的设计基础上,对局部结构设计进行改良,WS-13将被命名为“天山-21”。By the Chinese and Russian sides in RD-33 based on the design of the local structure design improvement WS-13 will be named the 'Tianshan 21.'"

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"KhanAsifm

so key point so far

- solid titanium Alloy fan blade

- Digital authority control system.

- Thrust ratio 7.8 (anything, 8.0 is great, so its close)

- Length 4.14 meters

- Diameter 1.02 meters

- operating weight 1,135 kilograms (RD33 dry weight is about 1055 kg)

- Augmentation thrust force 86.37000 kN (19391 lbs) , RD-33 basic had 81.4 kN (~18,300 lbs), 1kN = ~224.5 lbs

- Min. augmented thrust 56.75000 (12,749 lbs) kN with consumption of .73 lbs /hour /lb of thrust (better than RD-33 dry of .77)

- Cruise thrust 51.2000 kN(11,494 lbs) with consumption of .65lbs /hour /lb of thrust (RD-33 had .77 lbs/hr /lb of thrust at mil./dry thrust)

- a bypass ratio 0.57 (far better than .49 of RD-33), a reason for better fuel consumption

- turbine wheel temperature 1650K

- total pressure 23 (do not know what it means ?? )

- Mean Time Between Overhaul is separated for 810 hours (4-5 year)

- total life is 2,200 hours (12-15 years).

- 1/4 th the price of of western equivalent (just my guess)

- May be cheaper then Russian RD Series (just my guess)

- Do not know about TVC ??

- Availability ?? 20XX ??"

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"Guizhou WS-13

The WS-13 Taishan (WoShan-13) is a turbofan engine designed and manufactured by Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation to power the jointly developed FC-1 Xiaolong / JF-17 Thunder light-weight multi-role fighter.

Design and development

China began development of the Taishan in 2000 to replace the Klimov RD-93 turbofan, which had been selected in the 1990s to power the JF-17 / FC-1 light-weight fighter. It is designed to have a life span of 2,200 hours and an improved version, providing around 100 kN (22,450 lb) of thrust with afterburner, is under development.[1]

The WS-13 Taishan was certified in 2007 and serial production began in 2009.[citation needed] The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.[2]

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13. [3]

Variants

* WS-13 - 86 kilonewtons (19,000 lbf) thrust with afterburner.[1]
* WS-13A (upgraded) - 100 kilonewtons (22,000 lbf) thrust with afterburner.[1]

Specifications (WS-13)

General characteristics

* Type: Afterburning turbofan
* Length: 4.14 metres (13.6 ft)
* Diameter: 1.02 metres (3 ft 4 in)
* Dry weight: 1,135 kilograms (2,500 lb)

Components

* Compressor: Two-spool 8-stage axial
* Combustors: annular

Performance

* Maximum thrust: 51.2 kilonewtons (11,500 lbf) dry; 86.37 kilonewtons (19,420 lbf) with afterburner
* Bypass ratio: 0.57:1
* Turbine inlet temperature: 1650 K (1,377 °C (2,511 °F))
* Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8

[Note: This Wikipedia article has sources in the footnotes for reference.]
 
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alvarorivero

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Nice info, but i dont se how related to the J-20 is?. Maybe is a taste of what the WS-15 can do???
 
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Martian

Senior Member
China's indigenous jet engines, including for J-20, perform within reasonable norms.

Nice info, but i dont se how related to the J-20 is?. Maybe is a taste of what the WS-15 can do???

Someone was making a ridiculous claim that China's jet engine technology was terrible and a Chinese supercruising engine will require an overhaul after a "few hours." Total nonsense. You should ask that people stop posting absurd claims so that I don't have to get mad and refute it.

Xu Yongling, one of China's top test pilots, told the Global Times that the J-20 possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability and powerful air mobility that are technological breakthroughs for the country.

From my post #1041, as related by Mr. Xu Yongling, we know that the J-20 "possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability." What is the name and type of the Chinese supercruise engine? I don't think anyone (outside of China's military) knows for sure yet.
 
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