J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

by78 said:

That's a expenditure/funding projection for the J-20 fighter project, not for the WS-15 turbofan! Furthermore, it's not even an official project roadmap with deadlines, but merely a funding projection based on one scenario. It's obvious that you don't read Chinese, so here's a translation:

(4) Estimated expenditure based on a projected scenario of developmental progress:
Based on the Air Force requirements for the fighter jet, in conjunction with the current progress of project "fifteen", our analysis shows that in order to establish a foundation for the 4th-generation fighter by 2006-2007 and have it enter service by 2019-2020, the progress scenario is as follows (see figure 5):
Figure 5 then lists the hoped-for progress for the various components of the J-20 project, including a date for integrating WS-10 engines onto the fighter. More tellingly, it mentions nothing about J-20's projected first flight with WS-15.
Based on our projection of future force posture, combat requirements, and budgetary constraints, we tentatively predict that by 2040 the Air Force will need xxx 4th-generation fighters. With that number in mind, and based on the past expenditure records for the 3rd-generation fighters such as J-10 and J-11, using the 2002 Renminbi value, our initial analysis predicts the total research expenditure for the J-20 project to be 37.1 billion yuan, which includes costs for eight prototypes and six pre-production examples. Airframe component is approximately 20 billion yuan, engines six billion yuan, avionics 7.5 billion yuan, and weapons 3.6 billion yuan. The total expenditure is about equal to the combined developmental costs for the J-10 and J-11 projects. Single unit cost for J-20 is expected to be 450 to 500 million yuan...

You have yet again presented something you don't understand as proof. As I have advised you before, if you don't read Chinese, then ask for a translation before sharing it.

Click to expand...

by78 said:

Figure 5 then lists the hoped-for progress for the various components of the J-20 project, including a date for integrating WS-10 engines onto the fighter. More tellingly, it mentions nothing about J-20's projected first flight with WS-15.

Click to expand...

Figaro said:

Come on man ... did you somehow miss this or are you deliberately ignoring this? I'll give you a hint ... the 推重比10 (thrust to weight ratio 10) engine is the WS-15. This is a projection indeed but it also serves as a timeline for when the PLAAF expects the WS-15 to be complete. Also, where did I say that 2015 and 2020 were deadlines? Please stop putting words in my mouth.
View attachment 61856

LOL so if the thrust to weight ratio 10 engine is not the WS-15, then what is it? Does this timeline need to explicitly state "WS-15 integrated into the J-20" for you to believe this?

Click to expand...

Inst said:

The rough range of the WS-15 goes from 160kn (Russian claims) to 197kn (most recent, and possibly fradulent claims concerning the WS-15).

I think it should be brought up that the WS-15 is a key delay in the J-20 platform development process. The J-20 is intended to carry the WS-15, not the WS-10B/C engine, and it is intended to use TVC.

The longer the WS-15 is delayed the longer full-scale production of the J-20 is delayed, as the J-20 is intended to counter the F-22 and F-35, and the numbers in the region could reach 120+ F-22 and 1200+ F-35 by 2030.

Moreover, the WS-15 is delaying the development of the J-20 platform. As is, the thrust to weight of the J-20 at 60% fuel and with a full missile load is roughly comparable to the F-35. An increase in available thrust allows increases in weight, which mean increases in capability (increased reinforcement for full 11G agility, increased reinforcement for larger internal bays, etc).

It does stand to reason that WS-15Bs might have further increased thrust over WS-15s, but it doesn't stand to reason that the Chinese would deliberately delay the WS-15 for performance increases when it's holding up J-20 production and development.

Click to expand...

Derivation of core engine has been highly recognized among the advance d aviation countries, and has become a major approach to develop a series of aer o engine. Based on the situation of engine development in China, this paper pres ents an idea of "core engines in series and derivation", discusses and analyzes the technology and development of the core engine. The paper introduces the basic parameters of 5 core-engines in detail. The thrust of the engines derived from the 5 core-engines ranges from 200 to 20 000daN. These engines will meet the ne eds of both military and civilian airplanes in China.

Click to expand...

Figaro said:

A 16 tonne WS-10 would really make the thrust of the WS-15 all the more interesting ... I think we can expect a thrust of 18 tonnes then. Apparently there were leaks in 2014 that 606 significantly altered the WS-15's specs, among them the thrust rating. This would explain why the WS-15 is a little behind schedule since it was supposed to be incorporated into the J-20 this year.

Click to expand...

Bltizo said:

However, if your argument is that you believe the plans for WS-15 moving to the right is because they are seeking enhanced performance, then I think the burden of proof is on the party making the claim, and the standard for proof is especially high if specific numbers are being cited.

Click to expand...

by78 said:

Figaro, the burden of proof is on you. Let's see it. I'm genuinely curious. Could you please provide a link to your claim that leaks in 2014 say "606 significantly altered the WS-15's specs, among them the thrust rating"?

Click to expand...

Figaro said:

No I wasn't. The WS-10 is a different engine than the WS-15 so why would I be mixing up those two? Please don't falsely speculate on my behalf. The

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

of the WS-15, as described by a well known big shrimp "Maya" was an engine in the 150 kN class (along with using 2nd gen DD6 single crystal superalloy, FGH 96 P/M superalloy), roughly analogous to the F119. Then starting around the early 2010s, there were reports of the WS-15 being an

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

instead and the WS-15 was even listed as an 180 kN engine in the AVIC organized "

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

" Obviously, these figures are quite a step up from the original 150 kN class design goal as stated by Maya. Unfortunately, I could not find the specific CJDBY threads detailing this revision since it was quite some time ago but you're more than fine to go search for this yourself. If anything, I'm surprised as to why you find a WS-15 design revision to be shocking. Since then, 3rd generation DD9 and DD10 single crystal superalloys have come out, not to mention the FGH-98 P/M disk, all of which offer substantial material performance upgrade over the original WS-15 materials. It is very plausible for 606 to take advantage of this and alter the design to include these materials rather than coming out with a quarter century old F119 class engine, as the original specs entailed.

Regarding the delay, Maya said it would take about 10 years for the WS-15 to enter mass production after testing its core at high altitude in late 2009. I hope you can agree that the WS-15 is not nearly in mass production stage yet right? As I've said before, I highly recommend you read through the 545 page engine thread. Perhaps it can enlighten you a bit on the Chinese aeroengine development .

Click to expand...

Figaro said:

I already answered your question in this post, which I made at 2:54 pm. And yet you kept insisting that there was no delay in the WS-15 ... I thought we were arguing about whether there was a delay in the WS-15 program.

Click to expand...

by78 said:

So you don't have any proof.

Click to expand...