J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

siegecrossbow said:

We are hitting r/CredibleDefense level arrogance here. Thankfully we are not yet at r/WorldNews.

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Until I am shown evidence otherwise, I will remain convinced that r/WorldNews is some kind of alien psyop designed to soften the brains of everyone who interacts with it prior to the alien invasion of earth.

And quite frankly, this is getting absurd. Patchwork-senpai might not have the complete information on the J-20 systems, but they are far more knowledgeable on this subject than any of us. They have full access to the information made available by the very best America could afford in terms of engineers, scientists, and whatever information is made avaliable either through accessing the information published by the J-20's engineers and designers or through the massively extensive intelligence and espionage apparatus that America has access to.

ZeEa5KPul said:

You have access to information we don't and even then your information is at best incomplete (not a knock on you, your government doesn't know nearly everything about the J-20). Unless you're willing to be forthcoming with some facts, you can't just deploy the "trust me, bro" and expect unquestioning agreement.

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I hope that you do understand that the only reason Patchwork_Chimera could even continue to have this information to share with us at all is because they haven't breached any confidentiality clauses of the American government and military. The only reason we continue to enjoy Patchwork's wonderful analysis and the education they provide is because Patchwork doesn't open up about sensitive information like that. If they do and they're found out, they can probably expect to be fired and cut out of the American intelligence loop at absolute minimum. More likely, it'll be decades in prison for treason and leaking classified information to a potential adversary force.

And sure, Patchwork might not be able to know everything about the J-20, but when we discuss the subject of the J-20's relative capabilities they are still literally the best type of source any of us can have right up until the point where both aircraft start getting into combat and shot at/down in the hundreds. No one has a complete reading of both systems, but Patchwork has perfect comprehension of the US system and respectable understanding of the Chinese system. Unless we have some Chinese avionics engineer hiding between us, Patchwork will have more information than any of us do and more.

A stock broker can't guarantee that their speculation on a certain stock asset is going to be correct, but I'd put a damn lot of my trust in them over the opinions of some random guy's musing on which ape NFT will totally be sellable for thousands of etherium.

siegecrossbow said:

Yes, I commented on it during Zhuhai Airshow 2021. The difference in STR between WS-10C and AL-31 was very obvious.

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Think it had more to do with how much green light the pilots were given

siegecrossbow said:

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Some illustrations showing the advantage of rolling at high AOA.

The motion essentially merges a roll with a turn. You have a 25-30 degree head start in nose direction change compared with rolling along the aircraft's axis.

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Like I said, “tumble roll”. Also merges a roll and a turn with a climb. If the diagram is accurate we’re talking about as much as a 120 degree nose pitch here.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

Not really lol. I can't think of any folks who have access to the information I'm basing my thoughts on the matter on, who also consider the J-20 as a platform to be superior in sheer A2A capability-set. Do they consider the J-20 a superior platform as a whole? Yeah absolutely, and so do I lol. However, as a tactical air superiority platform, the F-22 is seriously scary - far moreso than most people understand. It's also because of some of those focused-capabilities that the F-22 is significantly less desirable on a wholistic, operational scale.

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Ok, now I'm not understanding you. I thought you just evaluated the F-22 to be superior to J-20 and but this sounds opposite. Are you saying that most people in US intelligence consider J-20 to be an overall superior platform to the F-22?

Patchwork_Chimera said:

I mean, yeah lol. Pilots do it all the time too, but for some reason it's only boffinbros like me that get shit for it

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Wat? Pilots go public online with classified stuff all the time?

Patchwork_Chimera said:

Are you implying that unless 100% of the US's IC is literally 100% right on all fronts 100% of the time and that 100% of classified reporting and analysis is exactly in line with unclass releases, that the US can never be correct about threat systems? You realize there's more to this than just one guy right lol?

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No, I'm saying that you were very confident of something, which I don't understand anymore because of the first paragraph of this post, and you based it on classifed US intelligence but at least for the last time the US went public with its assessment of the J-20, it was proven quite wrong. So one might say, "I have data and if it is correct, it suggests XXX" but based on the large probability of the data being incorrect especially when it comes to China, which modernizes its system so quickly, I would certainly not make the assertion that, "I absolutely insist that XXX."

Patchwork_Chimera said:

I can't tell if you're insinuating that the US actively disseminates propaganda figures to its intelligence community when generating intelligence product, or if you're accusing me of being a propaganda/intimidation agent. If the former, then geez you have an even lower opinion of the US government than I do somehow; and if the latter, I must really REALLY suck at it, because the overwhelming majority of what I've written has painted the PLA as a highly capable force, and I'd have to really stretch myself to imagine how that could intimidate... uhh.... PLAwatchers?

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No, I didn't mean what you do here. And actually I haven't read any of your other posts. I'm saying that in American popular media, F-22 is protrayed as virtually invincible and infallable and I'm against the propagation this image. It's a jet and it can be beat or be beaten by other jets.

I'm liking this conversation much more now. I didn't read whatever you wrote before as @tphuang kept telling me about and came you know you from, "We can't judge what we don't know, but I know that F-22 definitely is better than J-20 so you should just trust whatever I say cus it's my job."

latenlazy said:

Think it had more to do with how much green light the pilots were given



Like I said, “tumble roll”. Also merges a roll and a turn with a climb. If the diagram is accurate we’re talking about as much as a 120 degree nose pitch here.

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In a later interview the engineer integrating WS-10 to the J-20 confirmed that the aircraft now has superior performance across the flight envelope. This has been corroborated by pilots from Dingxin, who fly both types.

At Zhuhai Airshow 2018 the premier test pilot of J-20, Li Gang, stated that the J-20 has comparable maneuvering capabilities to the J-10. When the pilots in Anshan switched to WS-10C variant of J-20, pilot Li Ling clearly stated that the J-20 has superior maneuvering capabilities compared with the J-11B.

siegecrossbow said:

In a later interview the engineer integrating WS-10 to the J-20 confirmed that the aircraft now has superior performance across the flight envelope. This has been corroborated by pilots from Dingxin, who fly both types.

At Zhuhai Airshow 2018 the premier test pilot of J-20, Li Gang, stated that the J-20 has comparable maneuvering capabilities to the J-10. When the pilots in Anshan switched to WS-10C variant of J-20, pilot Li Ling clearly stated that the J-20 has superior maneuvering capabilities compared with the J-11B.

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The WS-10C may be (probably is) a better engine. I’m just noting that may not be why we saw differences in performance intensity at Zhuhai. After all the planes at Changchun were using Al-31s and they were flying more aggressively than the performance we saw at Zhuhai as well.

manqiangrexue said:

Ok, now I'm not understanding you. I thought you just evaluated the F-22 to be superior to J-20 and but this sounds opposite. Are you saying that most people in US intelligence consider J-20 to be an overall superior platform to the F-22?

Wat? Pilots go public online with classified stuff all the time?

No, I'm saying that you were very confident of something, which I don't understand anymore because of the first paragraph of this post, and you based it on classifed US intelligence but at least for the last time the US went public with its assessment of the J-20, it was proven quite wrong. So one might say, "I have data and if it is correct, it suggests XXX" but based on the large probability of the data being incorrect especially when it comes to China, which modernizes its system so quickly, I would certainly not make the assertion that, "I absolutely insist that XXX."

No, I didn't mean what you do here. And actually I haven't read any of your other posts. I'm saying that in American popular media, F-22 is protrayed as virtually invincible and infallable and I'm against the propagation this image. It's a jet and it can be beat or be beaten by other jets.

I'm liking this conversation much more now. I didn't read whatever you wrote before as @tphuang kept telling me about and came you know you from, "We can't judge what we don't know, but I know that F-22 definitely is better than J-20 so you should just trust whatever I say cus it's my job."

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This is a lot of breath to waste on what essentially amounts to low trust sentiments. I think we would all do better to just believe what we want and live and let live here.

latenlazy said:

The WS-10C may be (probably is) a better engine. I’m just noting that may not be why we saw differences in performance intensity at Zhuhai. After all the planes at Changchun were using Al-31s and they were flying more aggressively than the performance we saw at Zhuhai as well.

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But the aggressive moves at Changchun relied more on aerodynamics than brute thrust. Tumbled roll in vertical climb required a velocity boost from flying level with afterburners, the remarkable part is not so much the engine thrust than the fact that the aircraft could pull off the stunt without stalling. I think J-20 with WS-10 could pull off the same stunt with shorter boost flight.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

It's okay, I can't say I'm expecting a high degree of comprehension at this point anyways.

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I try to engage with you and you insult me?

Patchwork_Chimera said:

Just take it slow and go word by word.

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OK, let's go.

"I can't think of any folks who have access to the information I'm basing my thoughts on the matter on, who also consider the J-20 as a platform to be superior in sheer A2A capability-set."
This means that you consider the J-20 a superior A2A platform over the F-22, which is not what your colleagues believe, correct?

"Do they consider the J-20 a superior platform as a whole? Yeah absolutely, and so do I lol."
Majority of US intelligence consider J-20 overall superior to F-22? News to me if that's what it means.

"However, as a tactical air superiority platform, the F-22 is seriously scary - far moreso than most people understand. It's also because of some of those focused-capabilities that the F-22 is significantly less desirable on a wholistic, operational scale."
This means that the F-22 is tactically superior to J-20. This is where is gets confusing because the F-22 is pure A2A dominance and you just said that you make the rare assessment that J-20 is superior in A2A. If so, how can the F-22 be superior tactically?

Patchwork_Chimera said:

No, but they absolutely will discuss some of the conclusions drawn from the information set they have access to (which includes classified information), just the same as I'm doing. If you're implying I'm dropping classified information, I'd challenge you to point to an instance of where that is true, and then to dial up the FBI for a hefty counterintelligence payout.

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In my opinion, providing conclusions based on classified data much less giving an area-by-area assessment of what makes each classified weapon superior is already a breach of security but hell if I call the FBI for anything to help US security.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

oh lovely, I'm so glad that you're dissecting my character the first time you interact with me or read stuff I've written

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Well, first impressions are everything. I'm not type of guy to do a background search on a dude when debating him; I go by what he says to me at the moment and "I worked for US intelligence and trust me, A is better than B (tactically)," is a little more than sketch. This is coupled with you saying we don't know enough to conclude anything, then you concluded with "absolute insistence" on something.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

I'm against that image as well lol. However, in the same way I wouldn't suggest that Minnie Chan's reporting should be taken as representative of the CMC's view on overall PLA force development -- I also would encourage you not to take mindless American entertainment with military characteristics as in any way representative of the DOD's view on anything. It'd be like saying Top Gun implies the US thinks a single F-15 could tangle with multiple Su-57s and come out on top.

Nobody is contesting this

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We don't have a problem here then.

manqiangrexue said:

I try to engage with you and you insult me?

OK, let's go.

"I can't think of any folks who have access to the information I'm basing my thoughts on the matter on, who also consider the J-20 as a platform to be superior in sheer A2A capability-set."
This means that you consider the J-20 a superior A2A platform over the F-22, which is not what your colleagues believe, correct?

"Do they consider the J-20 a superior platform as a whole? Yeah absolutely, and so do I lol."
Majority of US intelligence consider J-20 overall superior to F-22? News to me if that's what it means.

"However, as a tactical air superiority platform, the F-22 is seriously scary - far moreso than most people understand. It's also because of some of those focused-capabilities that the F-22 is significantly less desirable on a wholistic, operational scale."
This means that the F-22 is tactically superior to J-20. This is where is gets confusing because the F-22 is pure A2A dominance and you just said that you make the rare assessment that J-20 is superior in A2A. If so, how can the F-22 be superior tactically?

In my opinion, providing conclusions based on classified data much less giving an area-by-area assessment of what makes each classified weapon superior is already a breach of security but hell if I call the FBI for anything to help US security.

Well, first impressions are everything. I'm not type of guy to do a background search on a dude when debating him; I go by what he says to me at the moment and "I worked for US intelligence and trust me, A is better than B (tactically)," is a little more than sketch. This is coupled with you saying we don't know enough to conclude anything, then you concluded with "absolute insistence" on something.

We don't have a problem here then.

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My understanding is that Patches is saying the F-22 is a one trick pony, that is A2A and it does it extremely well, better than the J-20, but the J-20 can do other things like (I'm just guessing here) command drones, act as a sensor node, and generally fit in better with the Chinese strategy than the F-22 can fit in the US strategy.

In other words, F-22 vs J-20 goes to the F-22, a strike package with F-22s vs a strike package with J-20s would go to the J-20.

Which is probably why the US would send F35s for that strike package.

They've been pretty consistent in saying that, I don't think I've read anything they've typed that contradicts that.

Fedupwithlies said:

My understanding is that Patches is saying the F-22 is a one trick pony, that is A2A and it does it extremely well, better than the J-20, but the J-20 can do other things like (I'm just guessing here) command drones, act as a sensor node, and generally fit in better with the Chinese strategy than the F-22 can fit in the US strategy.

In other words, F-22 vs J-20 goes to the F-22, a strike package with F-22s vs a strike package with J-20s would go to the J-20.

Which is probably why the US would send F35s for that strike package.

They've been pretty consistent in saying that, I don't think I've read anything they've typed that contradicts that.

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It's this sentence otherwise I would have the same understanding as you:

"I can't think of any folks who have access to the information I'm basing my thoughts on the matter on, who also consider the J-20 as a platform to be superior in sheer A2A capability-set."

This "also" (along with the negative at the beginning of the sentence) sounds like he believes the J-20 to be better in A2A than F-22. I'm trying to get clarity on what he's saying.