J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

Status
Not open for further replies.

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
J20 is a twin engine fighter and about 40% larger in size. You need to first modify for that and then again for the lower wage cost in China.

(at which point you may end up at a similar price to the F35 but that's coincidental)
ah right, it's bigger and twin engines, although at the same time there's various other factors that makes f22 more expensive though and besides wage costs and the likes we also got private companies/contractors on the US side (also parts made all over the country etc.) for the f35.

Anyways, the point is the various guestimates I've seen here puts j-20 more inline with f-35 rather than the pricier f22 despite size/twin engine etc. Although at the end of the day we can only guestimate.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
So, the question of J-20 cost has somehow come up again. Let's explain again why F-22's costs were so high and why J-20's costs aren't like to be in the same ballpark:
- F-22 was developed with the most advanced AESA radar at that time (far more advanced than any other radar in the world). As such, it was done before AESA and T/R module costs have come down. So, it's radar/electronics are likely to be a lot more than J-20 which is using a more recent version of a more mature technology.
- F-22's engine F-119 was also cutting edge and revolutionary at the time. It was never produced in large numbers, so the costs were likely very high. That's not the case with WS-10C with J-20. WS-10C costs are likely several folds lower.
- F-22 never reached high production rate. I think the highest it reached was about 20 a year. I'm thinking J-20 will hit run-rate of about 50 a year this year and go even higher in the future.
- F-22 was designed with VLO in mind. It had higher requirements for rear and side stealth than both J-20 and F-35. Therefore, it's design (for example the exhaust) is far more complicated than other fighter jet. As such, there is higher cost involved.
- F-22 was developed at a time when stealth layer/material was not as mature as now. Therefore, the production and maintenance costs are higher than what one would've expected out of more mature stealth layer technology

Even with all of these constraints, F-22 flyaway costs had dropped to $137 million per unit when the production level was more consistent for the final 60 units. With everything included in combat condition, it was probably around $180 million. In comparison, F-35A flyaway unit cost was $78 million and full cost was probably $110 million
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Considering that F-35 production level was likely 7 to 8 times that of F-22s. The higher production rate alone should have brought down production costs by 35 to 40%. If we applied a 35% cost reduction on F-22, it would be not that much more expensive than F-35.

Therefore, as we apply similar reductions to J-20 with the benefits of higher production rate, lower engine costs and electronics/material costs, it'd be very hard for me to see J-20 cost not being far lower than F-22's costs. The higher production rate allows CAC to get big discounts from suppliers and buy new machineries to increase automation and reduce labour costs. This same rule applies to the rest of the supply chain. As time goes on, production quality will keep going up and cost in today's money will keep going down. We know that J-10 was sold to Pakistan for about $50 million a unit. The cost for PLAAF would probably be a little lower at $45 million each. It'd be hard for me to think that a fully ramped up J-20 production line to be producing at higher than $80 million each. That would be lower than F-35A. Keep in mind that while F-35A is single engined, it's a very large single engined aircraft. With China's lower cost, $80 million per J-20 is probably quite a reasonable estimation.
 

defenceman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi sorry to be little off topic but who said Pakistan is getting j20 until unless if it’s from some airforce chief or GOP itself don’t trust anyone else
anything which can or will be towards Pakistan in stealth is either j31/35 whichever is ready for export with Chinese will & that’s enough for the time being for Pakistan to counter her neighbour
ps apologies for my off topic
thank you
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
You should have asked that in the Pakistan Military thread.
I think there is a near zero chance of a J-20 export to Pakistan in the near term. There is just no point to it since the security threat from India does not justify the sale. China also interested in keeping J-20 technology secret. J-XY sale is more likely but it is also too early for that. Pakistan needs to focus on internal development of its economy. Not buy expensive stealth aircraft when India does not have such weapons nor plans to have them in near term. It will only lead to expensive arms race. Stealth aircraft sale might be pushed through if India gets the Su-57 or F-35 however.
 

aubzman

New Member
Registered Member
We are talking 15-20 years into the future and I don't think J-20 processes had the same mistakes as f-22 which ramped up it's prices.
Agree there, front line tech like the J20 needs to stay a technical mystery to potential opponents for as long as possible. That is what I find most interesting about China making the J10 available to Pakistan given Pakistan has had quite close relationships with the USA in some defense areas, operating F16's for example. I am quite sure that the USA would be "very" interested in performance comparisons between the F16 and J10. Very interested.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Agree there, front line tech like the J20 needs to stay a technical mystery to potential opponents for as long as possible. That is what I find most interesting about China making the J10 available to Pakistan given Pakistan has had quite close relationships with the USA in some defense areas, operating F16's for example. I am quite sure that the USA would be "very" interested in performance comparisons between the F16 and J10. Very interested.

J-10 is frontline tech but not top tier. Both J-20 and J-16 are higher in the totem pole. How J-10C is used in Pakistan is also very different from how it is used in PLAAF.
 

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
Agree there, front line tech like the J20 needs to stay a technical mystery to potential opponents for as long as possible. That is what I find most interesting about China making the J10 available to Pakistan given Pakistan has had quite close relationships with the USA in some defense areas, operating F16's for example. I am quite sure that the USA would be "very" interested in performance comparisons between the F16 and J10. Very interested.
Pretty sure that comparisons between F16s which have been in service for 40 years and various delta-canards that have been in service for 20 years have long been made. In pure aerodynamic/kinematics terms I expect J10 is much of a muchness with Typhoon, Rafale and Grippen.
 

Inst

Captain
So, the question of J-20 cost has somehow come up again. Let's explain again why F-22's costs were so high and why J-20's costs aren't like to be in the same ballpark:
- F-22 was developed with the most advanced AESA radar at that time (far more advanced than any other radar in the world). As such, it was done before AESA and T/R module costs have come down. So, it's radar/electronics are likely to be a lot more than J-20 which is using a more recent version of a more mature technology.
- F-22's engine F-119 was also cutting edge and revolutionary at the time. It was never produced in large numbers, so the costs were likely very high. That's not the case with WS-10C with J-20. WS-10C costs are likely several folds lower.
- F-22 never reached high production rate. I think the highest it reached was about 20 a year. I'm thinking J-20 will hit run-rate of about 50 a year this year and go even higher in the future.
- F-22 was designed with VLO in mind. It had higher requirements for rear and side stealth than both J-20 and F-35. Therefore, it's design (for example the exhaust) is far more complicated than other fighter jet. As such, there is higher cost involved.
- F-22 was developed at a time when stealth layer/material was not as mature as now. Therefore, the production and maintenance costs are higher than what one would've expected out of more mature stealth layer technology

Even with all of these constraints, F-22 flyaway costs had dropped to $137 million per unit when the production level was more consistent for the final 60 units. With everything included in combat condition, it was probably around $180 million. In comparison, F-35A flyaway unit cost was $78 million and full cost was probably $110 million
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Considering that F-35 production level was likely 7 to 8 times that of F-22s. The higher production rate alone should have brought down production costs by 35 to 40%. If we applied a 35% cost reduction on F-22, it would be not that much more expensive than F-35.

Therefore, as we apply similar reductions to J-20 with the benefits of higher production rate, lower engine costs and electronics/material costs, it'd be very hard for me to see J-20 cost not being far lower than F-22's costs. The higher production rate allows CAC to get big discounts from suppliers and buy new machineries to increase automation and reduce labour costs. This same rule applies to the rest of the supply chain. As time goes on, production quality will keep going up and cost in today's money will keep going down. We know that J-10 was sold to Pakistan for about $50 million a unit. The cost for PLAAF would probably be a little lower at $45 million each. It'd be hard for me to think that a fully ramped up J-20 production line to be producing at higher than $80 million each. That would be lower than F-35A. Keep in mind that while F-35A is single engined, it's a very large single engined aircraft. With China's lower cost, $80 million per J-20 is probably quite a reasonable estimation.

I wouldn't be surprised if the J-20 was in the 110 million USD range, especially once you consider the fluctuating USDRMB exchange rate.

The J-20 is a full heavy-weight fighter-interceptor aircraft, using extensive titanium construction as well as novel composites. The J-20, when you compare it to the F-22, is actually larger in terms of area (270m^2 from 20.88*12.95 vs 256.55 m^2 from 18.92*13.56) and volume, and arguably has better bays as well. The swivel side bays, where you can keep a missile on external station, is likely to add costs. And unlike the F-22, the J-20 has a fully modern EODAS, like the F-35.

When you adjust for PPP, the J-20 is likely to be more expensive than the F-22. At current exchange rates, it's likely to be somewhat less expensive.

Ultimately, I'd rather think of the J-20 as closer to a YF-23 with TVC than a F-22 in terms of design and roles; the J-20 sacrifices stealth for maneuverability (it's not designed for all-aspect stealth), but has superior kinematics to the F-22.

Also, off the top of my head, the final flyaway cost for the F-22 was around 173 million in 2010 (it was 138 million in 2009). With inflation tacked on, it'd be 224.19 million (or 180 million). 110 million might no longer be current due to changes in exchange rate (the 700 to 800 million RMB specced is now 110-126 million at present exchange rates).

It's still substantially cheaper than the F-22; when we use PPP to adjust for the Chinese production cost savings, 110 million is 182.6 million, which would be about right for an aircraft designed to match or defeat the F-22.
 
Last edited:

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, the question of J-20 cost has somehow come up again. Let's explain again why F-22's costs were so high and why J-20's costs aren't like to be in the same ballpark:
- F-22 was developed with the most advanced AESA radar at that time (far more advanced than any other radar in the world). As such, it was done before AESA and T/R module costs have come down. So, it's radar/electronics are likely to be a lot more than J-20 which is using a more recent version of a more mature technology.
- F-22's engine F-119 was also cutting edge and revolutionary at the time. It was never produced in large numbers, so the costs were likely very high. That's not the case with WS-10C with J-20. WS-10C costs are likely several folds lower.
- F-22 never reached high production rate. I think the highest it reached was about 20 a year. I'm thinking J-20 will hit run-rate of about 50 a year this year and go even higher in the future.
- F-22 was designed with VLO in mind. It had higher requirements for rear and side stealth than both J-20 and F-35. Therefore, it's design (for example the exhaust) is far more complicated than other fighter jet. As such, there is higher cost involved.
- F-22 was developed at a time when stealth layer/material was not as mature as now. Therefore, the production and maintenance costs are higher than what one would've expected out of more mature stealth layer technology

Even with all of these constraints, F-22 flyaway costs had dropped to $137 million per unit when the production level was more consistent for the final 60 units. With everything included in combat condition, it was probably around $180 million. In comparison, F-35A flyaway unit cost was $78 million and full cost was probably $110 million
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Considering that F-35 production level was likely 7 to 8 times that of F-22s. The higher production rate alone should have brought down production costs by 35 to 40%. If we applied a 35% cost reduction on F-22, it would be not that much more expensive than F-35.

Therefore, as we apply similar reductions to J-20 with the benefits of higher production rate, lower engine costs and electronics/material costs, it'd be very hard for me to see J-20 cost not being far lower than F-22's costs. The higher production rate allows CAC to get big discounts from suppliers and buy new machineries to increase automation and reduce labour costs. This same rule applies to the rest of the supply chain. As time goes on, production quality will keep going up and cost in today's money will keep going down. We know that J-10 was sold to Pakistan for about $50 million a unit. The cost for PLAAF would probably be a little lower at $45 million each. It'd be hard for me to think that a fully ramped up J-20 production line to be producing at higher than $80 million each. That would be lower than F-35A. Keep in mind that while F-35A is single engined, it's a very large single engined aircraft. With China's lower cost, $80 million per J-20 is probably quite a reasonable estimation.
Also the software support of things was used not really plug and play and using less common coding systems, which also just adds more eto cost, development and upgrades.

Also if we see j-10c at 50m a unit and say compare it to f-16vs and latest grippens going around at 80m-90m range, were already seeing around 40% price difference.

If we apply similar logic, Id see rough price guesstimations to be somewhere in 80-100m / unit for j-20.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
So, the question of J-20 cost has somehow come up again. Let's explain again why F-22's costs were so high and why J-20's costs aren't like to be in the same ballpark:
- F-22 was developed with the most advanced AESA radar at that time (far more advanced than any other radar in the world). As such, it was done before AESA and T/R module costs have come down. So, it's radar/electronics are likely to be a lot more than J-20 which is using a more recent version of a more mature technology.
- F-22's engine F-119 was also cutting edge and revolutionary at the time. It was never produced in large numbers, so the costs were likely very high. That's not the case with WS-10C with J-20. WS-10C costs are likely several folds lower.
- F-22 never reached high production rate. I think the highest it reached was about 20 a year. I'm thinking J-20 will hit run-rate of about 50 a year this year and go even higher in the future.
- F-22 was designed with VLO in mind. It had higher requirements for rear and side stealth than both J-20 and F-35. Therefore, it's design (for example the exhaust) is far more complicated than other fighter jet. As such, there is higher cost involved.
- F-22 was developed at a time when stealth layer/material was not as mature as now. Therefore, the production and maintenance costs are higher than what one would've expected out of more mature stealth layer technology

Even with all of these constraints, F-22 flyaway costs had dropped to $137 million per unit when the production level was more consistent for the final 60 units. With everything included in combat condition, it was probably around $180 million. In comparison, F-35A flyaway unit cost was $78 million and full cost was probably $110 million
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Considering that F-35 production level was likely 7 to 8 times that of F-22s. The higher production rate alone should have brought down production costs by 35 to 40%. If we applied a 35% cost reduction on F-22, it would be not that much more expensive than F-35.

Therefore, as we apply similar reductions to J-20 with the benefits of higher production rate, lower engine costs and electronics/material costs, it'd be very hard for me to see J-20 cost not being far lower than F-22's costs. The higher production rate allows CAC to get big discounts from suppliers and buy new machineries to increase automation and reduce labour costs. This same rule applies to the rest of the supply chain. As time goes on, production quality will keep going up and cost in today's money will keep going down. We know that J-10 was sold to Pakistan for about $50 million a unit. The cost for PLAAF would probably be a little lower at $45 million each. It'd be hard for me to think that a fully ramped up J-20 production line to be producing at higher than $80 million each. That would be lower than F-35A. Keep in mind that while F-35A is single engined, it's a very large single engined aircraft. With China's lower cost, $80 million per J-20 is probably quite a reasonable estimation.
On the F35 cost that is a bit unfair. Yes it may cost higher to maintain as 5th gen, but you need to account for F-15 and etc and their maintnence cost and training cost.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top