J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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reservior dogs

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tphuang said:
More from that podcast.

We will see J-20 units everywhere. It won't just be concentrate on Japan/Taiwan. India will get attention too.

Based on DACT involving J-20s, they realized they have to adjust some of the tactics they previously came up with F-22/F-35. They talked about recent pod that was tested on F-22
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. The need for pod goes back to the previous point about challenges in upgrading an older aircraft that froze layout internally a long time ago. Note easy to add certain features like IRST
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They said back in 2019, they asked staff at radar show what would be the detection range against F-22 for an anti-stealth radar. The range was a lot longer than they expected. The accuracy is not good enough to guide a missile but definitely good enough to guide a fighter jet to intercept it. I'm not sure China actually knows exactly how stealthy F-22 really is. I'm also not sure how well anti-stealth radar would do against jamming. However, even if the detection range is 1/2 or 1/3 of what they think it is, it's unlikely that F-22/35 or B-21 would be able to go through all of China's air space completely undetected. That imo is the most important part here. As long as they know a VLO aircraft is coming in, there will be ways to handle it and any invading force would have to be very careful with how they come in.

The belief is that with more powerful AESA radar and EO tracker available, it's possible for stealth aircraft to find each other. And that's probably why F-22 would need EW pod to be more invisible.

They consider the new two seater vs the original single seater to be the difference between J-10A and J-10C. A different generation in avionics architecture and capabilities. If there was a new single seater with the new avionics architecture (maybe WS-15 one), it would also be a huge leap forward. They also believe the utility of n additional operator for two seater exceeds the understanding of most Western military watchers who think it's just a UAV controller.

on a personal note, I think we will see an EW version of J-20 and it will have VLO external pod like F-22. And it will have to be a 2 seater to do all the tasks that you'd want a EW aircraft to do. And such a EW aircraft would be very hard to track and be a powerful tool in any SEAD mission.
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How does an EW aircraft, which need to emit a lot of signals, hide its location?
 
tphuang

tphuang

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reservior dogs said:
How does an EW aircraft, which need to emit a lot of signals, hide its location?
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Sorry, I had to think about how to respond to this since this entire area has changed so much with the advent of frequency hopping AESA radars. I already posted an article in PLAAF thread about how advanced China is in this theater. Here is another article from a former F-18 pilot on this topic
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An urgent example is the newly deployed Chinese J-16D electronic warfare aircraft which specializes in electronic reconnaissance, jamming, and attack on enemy radars and communication systems. It’s based on the existing Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKK platform and wields the latest avionics, AESA radars, and integrated electronic warfare suites with pods optimized for different radio frequencies.


These advancements in sensors, radars and comprehensive electronic warfare suites are leading to massive and rapid modernization of Chinese coastal and ship-borne air defense systems. With sophisticated electronic protection (EP) and high-performance sensors, these systems are becoming a major threat to U.S. aircraft onboard our Carrier Strike Groups. As a result, our joint forces, including the F/A-18s in our Carrier Air Wings, need rapid updates with the latest offensive and defensive EW technology to maintain the critical advantage at the tactical edge. Otherwise, our forces will be hard-pressed to defeat the advanced radars, agile sensors, and weapons being fielded by these threats. Should PLA’s current, rapid pace continue unchecked, it will further shift the regional balance and damage our national interest.
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Few things that's important here. EW aircraft would have pods optimized for different radio frequencies. They are going to collect electronic signals (sigint) from radar/EW suite/communications, learn how to spoof enemy, confuse radar and jam them with other aircraft (say J-16 or UCAVs). A J-20 EW aircraft would not be operating alone. And keep in mind this would also be incorporated with other platforms like air defense and naval ships.

In EW, the latest generation EW suite is often the best suite and most capable of winning. That's what this author alluded to here. A new dedicated EW platform that can be upgraded easily and continuously learn and become better at confusing/jamming/blocking communications and creating decoys is one that will win.

That's why I personally think F-35 is a bigger threat to J-20 than F-22. The aircraft with the latest generation EW suite/radar will always win in EW.
 
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Andy1974

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reservior dogs said:
How does an EW aircraft, which need to emit a lot of signals, hide its location?
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I suppose it can select which direction to emit in, it could have areas it does not emit too, such as where known EW detectors are.

It can operate passively, and when emitting it can go dark and scoot away at any moment.

It was said that the J20S will be much more than even this, it was mentioned it could also operate as AWACS, maybe even JSTAR and more, in addition to being a drone controler/pilot/man-in-the-loop and network hub.

Hell, it could even carry sonobuoys internally.
 
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tphuang

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Andy1974 said:
I suppose it can select which direction to emit in, it could have areas it does not emit too, such as where known EW detectors are.

It can operate passively, and when emitting it can go dark and scoot away at any moment.

It was said that the J20S will be much more than even this, it was mentioned it could also operate as AWACS, maybe even JSTAR and more, in addition to being a drone controler/pilot/man-in-the-loop and network hub.

Hell, it could even carry sonobuoys internally.
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Just to be clear here, I'm not talking about the standard 2-seaters. I'm talking about a new variant like J-20D based on J-20 two seater air frame. It would be designed from grounds up as an EW aircraft and be equipped with a newer generation EW pods and internal equipments. It would have the most advanced situation awareness and AI to figure out how to listen to electromagnetic emissions and how to manipulate, suppress and confuse them.

I think the recent F-22 testing of EW pod (I think???) is not in isolation. The talk from all the US senators of banning any semiconductor equipment to China is not in isolation. USAF is seeing that it's older aircraft and Japanese/Taiwanese aircraft/air defense systems are getting overwhelmed by Chinese Electronic warfare over East China Sea. It's seeing all the enhanced electronic interference stations China build over South China Sea having a real effect on American spy aircraft and naval ships in the area. It doesn't think that F-22's mid 2000s era radar and EW suite can really compete with what's on J-20 or even J-16. As I discussed earlier, winning in EW means having the newest generation equipment with the latest chips. It doesn't matter how stealth F-22 is. In an environment where Chinese land and naval anti-stealth radar can detect F-22s flying at a reasonable range, even J-16s radar/EW suite could potentially find F-22 at a non-trivial range. Without a modern EW suite, F-22 would just be at risk of exposing itself with an older generation radar and ECM equipment.

If we come back to J-20D, China would be aiming here for the most advanced EW aircraft in the world. America does not have a project of a specialized EW version of F-35. How can you possibly conduct comprehensive EW with just a single seat pilot? So, they'd have to rely on growler. There is no way the growler could match J-20D in power, situation awareness, internal space and range/endurance. It wasn't obvious to me before how they can bring this much EW capability to a stealth aircraft like J-20. But having seen USAF willing to trade some level of hard stealth for great soft stealth/EW capability, I'm convinced J-20D would be able to carry even greater number of pods without sacrificing too much stealth. I'm sure they can sacrifice some of that internal weapon bay for more electronic equipment.

Similarly if they really wanted to create a mini-AWACS on J-20 two seater, why just stop at distributed AWACS? Why not start installing AESA radar all around J-20 (like su-57 has done)? It will give off more EM waves than your regular J-20, but will still be several orders of magnitude more stealthy and survivable than any AWACS.
 
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