J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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Blitzo

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@tphuang did they mention anything regarding to the capabilities of EOTS-86 vs F35's EOTS? i've always thought it was less capable than F35's because there doesn't seem to be bottom or rear facing windows on EOTS-86 to provide full ground coverage.

J-20 does not use "EOTS-86" to the best of our knowledge.

It uses a faceted chin mounted EO IRST system, but its designation is not one we know. However we know it does not look the same as the "EOTS-86" system as seen from the company that advertised it ("Beijing A-Star"), and frankly I've long held doubts as to how serious the product catalogue promoted by Beijing A-Star actually was.

You are correct that the J-20's chin mounted EO IRST system appears to have an opaque rear aspect, whereas the F-35's AAQ-40 EOTS has a continuous rear aspect all around the faceted mount. This makes sense because the F-35's AAQ-40 EOTS is designed to operate as an air to ground sensor as well (and with the ability to monitor and laser designate ground based targets), in a way as close as possible to traditional targeting pods, which requires a 360 degree gimbal capability.
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J-20's chin mounted EO IRST appears to primarily be an air to air sensor, which similar to the mounting for the AIRST system proposed for F-22, has an opaque rear aspect, which is consistent with a sensor more prioritized for the forward and side aspects most important for the air to air misison.
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What are you talking about? of couse J-20 has race window of EOTS, just unlike EOTS in F-35 which is a rotate camero system under its nose, so everything is intergrate in one block, J-20 has two seperate EOTS system in its belly and its back to look in the front/back upper/lower sphare.

His post wasn't very clear, but he was talking about the chin mounted EO IRST sensor on J-20, compared with the chin mounted AAQ-40 EOTS sensor on F-35.
Those are mechanically gimbaled, relatively large aperture sensors that can be re-oriented within its housing for a target.

What you are talking about as "two separate EOTS system in its belly" is part of the J-20's 360 degree electro optic passive detection system (six fixed, non moving, relatively small aperture sensors, that operates at minimum like an advanced MAWS, but may also operate like an EODAS system).
However, F-35 has such a system (AN/AAQ-37 EO DAS) as well, with six fixed, non moving, relatively small aperture sensors, which we know can provide advanced passive tracking and "see through the cockpit" capability, as well as an advanced MAWS capability.

These fixed, six small aperture systems on J-20 and F-35 complement, but do not replace the chin mounted, mechanically rotated, large aperture sensors on the noses -- and it is correct to say that F-35 possesses a key capability which J-20 doesn't, which is that the F-35 can rotate its chin mounted sensor all the way 360 degrees whereas J-20's chin mounted sensor looks like it is unable to see the rear 90 degrees aspect.
However, that probably isn't very important, because J-20's chin mounted sensor looks like it is most optimized for an air to air mission where the forward aspect sensing capability is most important, whereas F-35's chin mounted sensor also serves an air to ground role where 360 degree rotation is more important.

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ecaedus

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J-20 does not use "EOTS-86" to the best of our knowledge.

It uses a faceted chin mounted EO IRST system, but its designation is not one we know. However we know it does not look the same as the "EOTS-86" system as seen from the company that advertised it ("Beijing A-Star"), and frankly I've long held doubts as to how serious the product catalogue promoted by Beijing A-Star actually was.

You are correct that the J-20's chin mounted EO IRST system appears to have an opaque rear aspect, whereas the F-35's AAQ-40 EOTS has a continuous rear aspect all around the faceted mount. This makes sense because the F-35's AAQ-40 EOTS is designed to operate as an air to ground sensor as well (and with the ability to monitor and laser designate ground based targets), in a way as close as possible to traditional targeting pods, which requires a 360 degree gimbal capability.
View attachment 82744


J-20's chin mounted EO IRST appears to primarily be an air to air sensor, which similar to the mounting for the AIRST system proposed for F-22, has an opaque rear aspect, which is consistent with a sensor more prioritized for the forward and side aspects most important for the air to air misison.
View attachment 82745
View attachment 82746




His post wasn't very clear, but he was talking about the chin mounted EO IRST sensor on J-20, compared with the chin mounted AAQ-40 EOTS sensor on F-35.
Those are mechanically gimbaled, relatively large aperture sensors that can be re-oriented within its housing for a target.

What you are talking about as "two separate EOTS system in its belly" is part of the J-20's 360 degree electro optic passive detection system (six fixed, non moving, relatively small aperture sensors, that operates at minimum like an advanced MAWS, but may also operate like an EODAS system).
However, F-35 has such a system (AN/AAQ-37 EO DAS) as well, with six fixed, non moving, relatively small aperture sensors, which we know can provide advanced passive tracking and "see through the cockpit" capability, as well as an advanced MAWS capability.

These fixed, six small aperture systems on J-20 and F-35 complement, but do not replace the chin mounted, mechanically rotated, large aperture sensors on the noses -- and it is correct to say that F-35 possesses a key capability which J-20 doesn't, which is that the F-35 can rotate its chin mounted sensor all the way 360 degrees whereas J-20's chin mounted sensor looks like it is unable to see the rear 90 degrees aspect.
However, that probably isn't very important, because J-20's chin mounted sensor looks like it is most optimized for an air to air mission where the forward aspect sensing capability is most important, whereas F-35's chin mounted sensor also serves an air to ground role where 360 degree rotation is more important.

View attachment 82747
View attachment 82748
thanks for the detailed explanation. exactly what i was looking for.

do we think that in the future J20 will also adopt bottom/rear EOTS coverage as well? seems like a wasted opportunity for it to be "nerfed" in the ground coverage aspect. i understand its suppose to be an air superiority fight first and foremost, but having that extra ground coverage capability can't hurt.
 

Deino

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It took 6 years from when CAC first got awarded j-20 project to when 2011 had its maiden flight in 2014. It took 7.5 years from when 2011 its maiden flight to the maiden flight of 2031. And 2031 uses a different engine and is larger. I would be very shocked if they did not do a major redesign of the interior to accommodate the latest concept and subsystems that are available. In fact, their podcast said multiples that the two seater project was pushed back some time in order to accommodate the new subsystems that were becoming available. That would indicate they redesigned things in the middle of the development.

....


Since when - besides the canopy - is the J-20AS '2031' using a different engine and is larger?? IMO it is just the regular WS-10C as in all current production J-20As. Or did I miss something?

J-20AS 2031 maiden flight maybe - 20211105 - 3.jpeg
 

lcloo

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I have a feeling that the illustration is making use of J20 as a choice of convinience by the poster illustractor to add extra
"value point" to their product. There is no evidence of J10 having EOT-86 installed. And using J20 to attack ground targets like a battle tank is simply un-imaginable.

Most likely user of EOTS-86 would be J21/J31/J35 or whatever the designation, for the second stealth jet of China.
 

Blitzo

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I have a feeling that the illustration is making use of J20 as a choice of convinience by the poster illustractor to add extra
"value point" to their product. There is no evidence of J10 having EOT-86 installed. And using J20 to attack ground targets like a battle tank is simply un-imaginable.

Most likely user of EOTS-86 would be J21/J31/J35 or whatever the designation, for the second stealth jet of China.

EOTS-86, and Beijing A-Star (the company which advertised it), have not seen any further presence at airshows or defense expos to my knowledge since it originally appeared a four or so years ago.

Not only is J-20's chin mounted EO IRST system completely different to EOTS-86, but also as you said, the advertisement for the system is vastly unofficial, and is aspirational at best, and unrealistic at worst.


Given the fact that we haven't seen any showing of this company and its products at all in the last few years, I would not be surprised if the entire product catalogue it offered was vapourware.
Or -- in the unlikely event it is real, it would have been part of (or folded into) a more proper state institute or company instead.


Which is a long winded way for me to say, it would benefit us all to pretend that EOTS-86 and Beijing A-Star doesn't exist lol.
 

tphuang

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Since when - besides the canopy - is the J-20AS '2031' using a different engine and is larger?? IMO it is just the regular WS-10C as in all current production J-20As. Or did I miss something?
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was comparing 2031 to 2011, since there were 7 and half years between their first flight. 2031 should be slightly larger than 2011 just from the extra seat, so the internal layout would have to be a little different even if they had no additional changes.

While I expect the J-20S to have the requisite modifications to support and enable the second seat in the cockpit, in terms of avionics systems (i.e.: including the actual physical hardware but also the software, everything from mission computers, to sensors, to datalinks), I would personally be surprised if there was any meaningful difference from J-20S to current in production J-20As.
J-20S would certainly have the tweaks to allow the second copilot/mission controller to use those same sensors and mission computers on its display consoles, but beyond that "duplication of key functions" I can't see why the systems would be different.


After all, looking from the outside the size of the various sensor apertures (and indeed the overall aircraft) looks identical between J-20A and J-20S save for one or two relocations likely related to the space rearrangement for the larger cockpit.

But any new advancement in avionics hardware or software should very easily be as useful for J-20A as for J-20S, and should fit in the same physical footprint as well.

Shilao podcast has said multiple times that the two seater makes use of the latest technologies available. A lot of which were simply not available when they froze the layout of 2011. They consider 2031 to possibly be half a generation ahead of current single seat J-20s. They specifically mentioned internal layout differences vs 2011 when discussing why it was delayed and why it would be more advanced. They also mentioned that it will eventually support capabilities that are currently not possible.
 

Jiang ZeminFanboy

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But any mentions about the procurement of two seater J-20? Maybe we can see two seater J-20 replace the production of one seater J-20, just like J-16 replaced the J-11B. However not enough pilots might be one of the limiting factors.
 
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