Yes, we’ve noticed, 700130-52!That's in fact the core of my hobby, or should I say obsession?
Which unit is your serial #?
J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII
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Which unit is your serial #?
I hadn't noticed this, but J-20 has officially been in service for 4 years (joined service in Feb 10 2018). I guess they considered it to have entered service (I guess Chinese version of IOC) when it joined service with the Cangzhou FTTB 172nd brigade. The first dadui with Dingxin 176th brigade was still considered to have been in testing and development phase, even though it is in active service.
Anyway, a long discussion on Shilao podcast on J-20's current status. They talked about the F-35 pressure facing China at the time from South Korea and Japan. It was a major concern on whether or not they can get the production up to deal with that threat. Keep in mind that China was still relying on AL-31FN at this point. Russia was still ordering a lot of flankers is 2014 to 2016 range, so hard for China to get the AL-31FN they needed to mass produce J-20. In addition, there was a lot of new technologies involved in J-20 that could cause mass production difficult. Now, the speed at which J-20 production has ramped up has caught a lot of domestic watchers off guard. PLAAF has more J-20s than f-35s service with SK (40) and Japan (30). They believe there are enough J-20s to easily dispose of the F-35s from SK and Japan. Seem a little optimistic to me, but I think this just shows they believe there to be far more J-20s than SK/Japan' F-35s.
They mentioned how J-20 induction speed has also blown past American expectations, whereas su-57 induction speed is well below expectations. Now that j-20 has dominated 2 red word exercises, all the brigades want J-20. They'd be disappointed to get J-10C/J-16 instead of J-20. They also mentioned another interesting point. J-20 brigades with young pilots will have strong future. They said that cost is not a major concern in J-20 induction. China can afford both J-16s and J-20s. They also agree with China's decision to speed up J-20 production before WS-15 is ready due to the increasingly more challenging geopolitical situation. I do agree with them here since deploying large number of slightly underpowered J-20 in near term is great for raising the capabilities and training of all the units. It's also great for the psyche of PLAAF pilots, since they will be less fearful of the F-35 pressure. Basically once people have seen how much better stealth aircraft is over non-stealth ones, there will be greater demand from everyone within PLAAF to terminate non-stealth aircraft production sooner and moving completely to stealth aircraft.
They think stealth aircraft has similar deterrence affect like nuclear weapon. They don't think Taiwan can detect its presence. IMO, J-20 and H-20 are game changers for PLAAF and need to be thought of as such. Y-20 and Z-20 are a level down in importance.
Another important thing they mentioned is the avionic architecture on J-20. The layout of fighter jet has to be set at very early point of development, before the first prototype flies off. The original J-20 layout would've been based on what China wanted and thought was possible in late 2000s. J-20 two seater lay out would've been based on what was available in the second half of 2010s. There was a huge leap in China's electronics and military avionics industry during this time. So there is a huge capability gap between what was on the original J-20 vs the two seaters. J-20two seater would be using the very latest of China's avionics technology and reflective of the latest design concept. Imo, J-20 with WS-10C (J-20II as Huitong called it) also had some changes internally compared to the original AL-31F J-20s (also reported further up this thread) for the same reasons. Based on their experience from initial J-20 testing/usage, they would've designed the internal layout of J-20II to be a little different based on that and the new material and concept and avionics technology that would've been available by mid 2010s. Similarly, it's hard for something like F-22 to be completely upgraded to the same generation of situation awareness as F-35 and J-20, since any avionics upgrade would have to fit inside the original layout of F-22. There just isn't space to easily add conformal EO tracker or EODAS.
Another point they mentioned is domestic version of something like JHCMS. They mentioned that although it's really great, it is also quite heavy and tough on the neck. They said it's tougher on Asians, since Asians have smaller physiques than Westerners. As such, the entire J-20 cockpit was done in a way to allow them to get all the functionalities/situation awareness of JHCMS without having to wear a heavy HMD. They said one common theme from their interaction with JASDF is that the Japanese pilots often complain of neck pain after long period of time on JHCMS. Again, big difference with 5th and 4th generation aircraft. It was designed from beginning to provide the highest level of situation awareness.
The overall theme was very optimistic. I don't think they are allowed to share the exact number of J-20 units or the rate of production, so they used more general statement to describe reasons why J-20 production level will be very high. Keep in mind that when J-10 first joined service, it was not a generation ahead of flankers. So, there was unlikely the same level of push from PLAAF units to all get J-10 as soon as possible. They said that maintenance crew that tried out J-20 for the first time did not want to leave the aircraft even though they had plenty of experience with advanced 4th generation aircraft. The more I listen to them talking, the more I'm pessimistic about the future production level of 4th generation aircraft with PLAAF, especially J-10.
Anyway, a long discussion on Shilao podcast on J-20's current status. They talked about the F-35 pressure facing China at the time from South Korea and Japan. It was a major concern on whether or not they can get the production up to deal with that threat. Keep in mind that China was still relying on AL-31FN at this point. Russia was still ordering a lot of flankers is 2014 to 2016 range, so hard for China to get the AL-31FN they needed to mass produce J-20. In addition, there was a lot of new technologies involved in J-20 that could cause mass production difficult. Now, the speed at which J-20 production has ramped up has caught a lot of domestic watchers off guard. PLAAF has more J-20s than f-35s service with SK (40) and Japan (30). They believe there are enough J-20s to easily dispose of the F-35s from SK and Japan. Seem a little optimistic to me, but I think this just shows they believe there to be far more J-20s than SK/Japan' F-35s.
They mentioned how J-20 induction speed has also blown past American expectations, whereas su-57 induction speed is well below expectations. Now that j-20 has dominated 2 red word exercises, all the brigades want J-20. They'd be disappointed to get J-10C/J-16 instead of J-20. They also mentioned another interesting point. J-20 brigades with young pilots will have strong future. They said that cost is not a major concern in J-20 induction. China can afford both J-16s and J-20s. They also agree with China's decision to speed up J-20 production before WS-15 is ready due to the increasingly more challenging geopolitical situation. I do agree with them here since deploying large number of slightly underpowered J-20 in near term is great for raising the capabilities and training of all the units. It's also great for the psyche of PLAAF pilots, since they will be less fearful of the F-35 pressure. Basically once people have seen how much better stealth aircraft is over non-stealth ones, there will be greater demand from everyone within PLAAF to terminate non-stealth aircraft production sooner and moving completely to stealth aircraft.
They think stealth aircraft has similar deterrence affect like nuclear weapon. They don't think Taiwan can detect its presence. IMO, J-20 and H-20 are game changers for PLAAF and need to be thought of as such. Y-20 and Z-20 are a level down in importance.
Another important thing they mentioned is the avionic architecture on J-20. The layout of fighter jet has to be set at very early point of development, before the first prototype flies off. The original J-20 layout would've been based on what China wanted and thought was possible in late 2000s. J-20 two seater lay out would've been based on what was available in the second half of 2010s. There was a huge leap in China's electronics and military avionics industry during this time. So there is a huge capability gap between what was on the original J-20 vs the two seaters. J-20two seater would be using the very latest of China's avionics technology and reflective of the latest design concept. Imo, J-20 with WS-10C (J-20II as Huitong called it) also had some changes internally compared to the original AL-31F J-20s (also reported further up this thread) for the same reasons. Based on their experience from initial J-20 testing/usage, they would've designed the internal layout of J-20II to be a little different based on that and the new material and concept and avionics technology that would've been available by mid 2010s. Similarly, it's hard for something like F-22 to be completely upgraded to the same generation of situation awareness as F-35 and J-20, since any avionics upgrade would have to fit inside the original layout of F-22. There just isn't space to easily add conformal EO tracker or EODAS.
Another point they mentioned is domestic version of something like JHCMS. They mentioned that although it's really great, it is also quite heavy and tough on the neck. They said it's tougher on Asians, since Asians have smaller physiques than Westerners. As such, the entire J-20 cockpit was done in a way to allow them to get all the functionalities/situation awareness of JHCMS without having to wear a heavy HMD. They said one common theme from their interaction with JASDF is that the Japanese pilots often complain of neck pain after long period of time on JHCMS. Again, big difference with 5th and 4th generation aircraft. It was designed from beginning to provide the highest level of situation awareness.
The overall theme was very optimistic. I don't think they are allowed to share the exact number of J-20 units or the rate of production, so they used more general statement to describe reasons why J-20 production level will be very high. Keep in mind that when J-10 first joined service, it was not a generation ahead of flankers. So, there was unlikely the same level of push from PLAAF units to all get J-10 as soon as possible. They said that maintenance crew that tried out J-20 for the first time did not want to leave the aircraft even though they had plenty of experience with advanced 4th generation aircraft. The more I listen to them talking, the more I'm pessimistic about the future production level of 4th generation aircraft with PLAAF, especially J-10.
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Very impressive.
I think PLAAF will soon turn to full production of J-20 and J-16 (as fighter-bomber), and reduce the J-10C production as an air superiority fighter.
J-10C is still a competive production in international market, maybe it's time to promote more.
Yor post is pretty accurate. But please consider the fact that radar mmic and hemt are not plug and play. So J-20 specs which were finalized around 2010 means that they cannot use technology which was recently developed. They will have to use the technology which was developed in the 2000s . Don't think that cac can develop software that quickly , it takes time to develop embedded software for mission critical workload.
@tphuang How do the J-20S (twin seater) and J-20II (the WS-10C single seater) compare when it comes to layout improvements for better avionics? Do they both have the same changes relative to the base J-20 (AL-31FN) or is the J-20S more advanced? If it's the latter, do you expect new batches of J-20 single seaters to incorporate the layout changes from the twin seater?
No wonder the guys at Anshan are still using old helmets for routine training.
@tphuang did they mention anything regarding to the capabilities of EOTS-86 vs F35's EOTS? i've always thought it was less capable than F35's because there doesn't seem to be bottom or rear facing windows on EOTS-86 to provide full ground coverage.
also, i was under the impression that JHCMS II could provide a "wonder woman" effect where the plane would simply disappear if the pilot looked down. How would the current HUD and screen setup of the J20 match this situational awareness capability?
also, i was under the impression that JHCMS II could provide a "wonder woman" effect where the plane would simply disappear if the pilot looked down. How would the current HUD and screen setup of the J20 match this situational awareness capability?
I actually think it’s been heavily implied before that the jump from the 200X series to the 201X series itself involved an extensive overhaul of internal systems like the avionics architecture to utilize the most present capability available in the 2010s.
What are you talking about? of couse J-20 has race window of EOTS, just unlike EOTS in F-35 which is a rotate camero system under its nose, so everything is intergrate in one block, J-20 has two seperate EOTS system in its belly and its back to look in the front/back upper/lower sphare.
far as I know, most helmet these days, include those super low weight helmet already has some simple HUD function builtin or with small addon to extend the the narrow window of HUD and even 'see through' cockpit, but unlike the JHCMS on F-35, these helmets do not have the signiture VR like image, just some simple A2A and flight information, like height, speed, G value, gun & missle status, enermy/friendly plane and etc.
there are pictures shows that J-20 pilots were using chinese version of 'JHCMS', but we haven't see them been massly deployed among all the troops use J-20, especially not seen on fron line brigade, like Anshan and Wuhu
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It took 6 years from when CAC first got awarded j-20 project to when 2011 had its maiden flight in 2014. It took 7.5 years from when 2011 its maiden flight to the maiden flight of 2031. And 2031 uses a different engine and is larger. I would be very shocked if they did not do a major redesign of the interior to accommodate the latest concept and subsystems that are available. In fact, their podcast said multiples that the two seater project was pushed back some time in order to accommodate the new subsystems that were becoming available. That would indicate they redesigned things in the middle of the development.
I will also expect when WS-15 equipped J-20 come out, it will also be changed quite a bit, since the extra power will allow it to use certain weapons (like DEW) that are not currently available on J-20.
The J-20 two seater should have the most advanced layout. We should not expect J-20II to have the same. We know J-20II did have some interior changes, since that's what CAC said. However, they did start testing it in 2017. A lot of subsystems available when J-20 two seater was being developed were probably not available when J-20II design was frozen.
This is actually not new. I've heard this to be the reason they didn't use HMD even back in late 2000s. I feel like there is a bit self imposed racism going there. it is probably true that most PLA pilots are more slight built than American pilots. I don't know if there is such a large difference that one pilot would get neck pain and the other one never does. It seems to me if JHCMS is so heavy, then American pilots flying from Japanese air base to Taiwan would also have sour neck by the time they fly back.
I think generally speaking, it's a good idea to make HMD lighter and try to display more of that information through MMI and the HUD. Maybe some of the functions of JHCMS can simply handled by AI, which can figure out for pilot the most relevant information. After all, the pilots already have to deal a lot physically with high G turns and long intensive period of flying. Adding the additional weight of JHCMS will more likely just cause pilot fatigue in the long term. that makes it hard to sustain high tempo actions.
that's quite possible. I'm just feeding back what was said in the podcast. We did see the addition of IRST and EODAS on 201X. That would require some level of redesign in the internal layout.
I'd be curious if there are any additional changes from 201X to 203X that can be spotted from the outside.
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