J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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Sardaukar20

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TL-20 air-to-surface missile, range 60-100km (most commonly quoted as 85km), Beidou and inertial guided, length 1.8m. It's apparently smart enough to be able to tell between wheeled and tracked vehicles. The article says it's uniquely suitable for decapitation strikes.

J-20 can carry 12 in it's main weapon bay, J-16 can carry 20.

Given the news we've seen recently on J-20 being based close to Taiwan the emphasis on decapitation strike certainly seems interesting...
Interestingly the TL-20 looks mightily similar to the Raytheon GBU 53 SDB II. The SDB II also has the touted capability to identify and strike mobile targets.

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There's definitely going to be a lot "China steals technology" accusations to come. Whether its a universal design, clone, or different weapon altogether, more needs to be observed. Still, its interesting to see Chinese defence technology already catching up with America.
 

siegecrossbow

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Interestingly the TL-20 looks mightily similar to the Raytheon GBU 53 SDB II. The SDB II also has the touted capability to identify and strike mobile targets.

View attachment 64226

There's definitely going to be a lot "China steals technology" accusations to come. Whether its a universal design, clone, or different weapon altogether, more needs to be observed. Still, its interesting to see Chinese defence technology already catching up with America.

You are like weeks late to the party man.
 

gelgoog

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The SDB is a typical US answer to a self-inflicted problem. You can't fit weapons as large (especially as long) as you used to be able to carry on the internal weapon bays of the multi-role stealth fighters. So they had to make the bombs physically smaller. This in turn meant the warhead was smaller so to achieve the same terminal effect the bomb has to be a lot more accurate. The problem is each of the SDBs, especially the SDB-II, costs as much as a top luxury or sports car. Then they use these bombs on technicals or guys on a motorcycle.
 

Sardaukar20

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You are like weeks late to the party man.
I know. All the technical details have already been discussed. Maybe I just wanted to say that Chinese defence technology is just so badly underestimated. They are already getting on par with the USA. They've skipped SDB I and have already arrived at SDB II. SDB I is still a relatively new weapon as of 2020.

Whether by R&D or technology theft. And still nobody in the 'free world' is going to give them their due respect.
 
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banjex

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The SDB is a typical US answer to a self-inflicted problem. You can't fit weapons as large (especially as long) as you used to be able to carry on the internal weapon bays of the multi-role stealth fighters. So they had to make the bombs physically smaller. This in turn meant the warhead was smaller so to achieve the same terminal effect the bomb has to be a lot more accurate. The problem is each of the SDBs, especially the SDB-II, costs as much as a top luxury or sports car. Then they use these bombs on technicals or guys on a motorcycle.

The F-22 was never intended for chasing militants in Toyota trucks. As for the F-35 - yes, for a while it was touted as a replacement for the A-10. But I think saner heads prevailed and the USAF plans to retain considerable numbers of fourth generation jets for some time. That will provide all the under wing pylon capacity you're lamenting.
 

Sardaukar20

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The SDB is a typical US answer to a self-inflicted problem. You can't fit weapons as large (especially as long) as you used to be able to carry on the internal weapon bays of the multi-role stealth fighters. So they had to make the bombs physically smaller. This in turn meant the warhead was smaller so to achieve the same terminal effect the bomb has to be a lot more accurate. The problem is each of the SDBs, especially the SDB-II, costs as much as a top luxury or sports car. Then they use these bombs on technicals or guys on a motorcycle.
I don't know if that is true. The US already have the B2 to carry lots of bombs in internal bomb bays. And the Hellfire missile is the prefered weapon to eliminate technicals and guys on motorcycles.

The SDB is carried not only by stealth fighter jets, but also by legacy fighters. The main logic is to increase the payload of bombs without the added weight. Because of precision, these bombs need not be as big as the old bombs. So a strike fighter could now strike more targets in a single mission. The guys getting hit are not going to care if its a 500lb JDAM or an SDB. And strike fighters are cheaper to fly than the big bombers. Its an improvement in air power efficiency. Makes perfect sense for the military bean counters.
 

Blitzo

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The SDB is a typical US answer to a self-inflicted problem. You can't fit weapons as large (especially as long) as you used to be able to carry on the internal weapon bays of the multi-role stealth fighters. So they had to make the bombs physically smaller. This in turn meant the warhead was smaller so to achieve the same terminal effect the bomb has to be a lot more accurate. The problem is each of the SDBs, especially the SDB-II, costs as much as a top luxury or sports car. Then they use these bombs on technicals or guys on a motorcycle.

Not at all.

The SDB and SDB II can be of course loaded on any aircraft compatible with them, not only stealth fighters.

4th gen fighters, cold war era bombers, stealth bombers, future stealth bombers in development -- each of those platforms with suitable software and datalinks and structural compatibility has the potential to carry these weapons, and the larger the aircraft, the larger the payload, and the larger the payload the greater the number of weapons.


And with weapons like SDB II, they are not only satellite guided but also semi active laser homing and even imaging infrared and millimeter wave radar guidance of their own, meaning they're extremely difficult to jam and are able to identify and hit their own targets (including moving targets).

And all this in a weapon which is shaped specifically to be able to penetrate hardened aircraft shelters, with a range of 100+ km.


A single stealth bomber loaded with SDB IIs would probably be able to destroy a single air base and all of its individual parked aircraft (either in hardened bases or out in the open) in a single sortie.


And it goes without saying what benefits this strike weapon provides to 4+ gen strike fighters and 5th gen fighters -- the ability to hit targets at 100+km with a large magazine load with extreme precision is a massive expansion in capability compared to the previous smallest PGM size they had being 250kg in weight with a range of only 25-60km at best.


I wouldn't be surprised if powered variants of SDB II emerge to extend its range and flexibility (similar to SPEAR 3), and with enhanced datalinking capabilities so a single aircraft can drop anywhere from 16 to 100+ SDB IIs in one load (depending on the size of the aircraft) and the weapons are all themselves able to allocate targets between themselves.
I wouldnt' be surprised if jamming/EW variants of SDB II also emerge, again similar to SPEAR 3.




I suppose what I'm saying is that having smaller weapons which with very good guidance is desirable if you have the money for it, because it allows a single aircraft performing a single sortie to prosecute more targets in said sortie.
The effects on your aircraft's efficiency and freeing up the rest of your aircraft to do other things cannot be understated.
 

AndrewS

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Not at all.

The SDB and SDB II can be of course loaded on any aircraft compatible with them, not only stealth fighters.

4th gen fighters, cold war era bombers, stealth bombers, future stealth bombers in development -- each of those platforms with suitable software and datalinks and structural compatibility has the potential to carry these weapons, and the larger the aircraft, the larger the payload, and the larger the payload the greater the number of weapons.


And with weapons like SDB II, they are not only satellite guided but also semi active laser homing and even imaging infrared and millimeter wave radar guidance of their own, meaning they're extremely difficult to jam and are able to identify and hit their own targets (including moving targets).

And all this in a weapon which is shaped specifically to be able to penetrate hardened aircraft shelters, with a range of 100+ km.


A single stealth bomber loaded with SDB IIs would probably be able to destroy a single air base and all of its individual parked aircraft (either in hardened bases or out in the open) in a single sortie.


And it goes without saying what benefits this strike weapon provides to 4+ gen strike fighters and 5th gen fighters -- the ability to hit targets at 100+km with a large magazine load with extreme precision is a massive expansion in capability compared to the previous smallest PGM size they had being 250kg in weight with a range of only 25-60km at best.


I wouldn't be surprised if powered variants of SDB II emerge to extend its range and flexibility (similar to SPEAR 3), and with enhanced datalinking capabilities so a single aircraft can drop anywhere from 16 to 100+ SDB IIs in one load (depending on the size of the aircraft) and the weapons are all themselves able to allocate targets between themselves.
I wouldnt' be surprised if jamming/EW variants of SDB II also emerge, again similar to SPEAR 3.




I suppose what I'm saying is that having smaller weapons which with very good guidance is desirable if you have the money for it, because it allows a single aircraft performing a single sortie to prosecute more targets in said sortie.
The effects on your aircraft's efficiency and freeing up the rest of your aircraft to do other things cannot be understated.

SDBs are still relatively short-ranged.
Even the powered SPEAR-3 only has a range of 130km.
Closing to that range is still dicey given the likelihood of opposition at that sort of distance.

So instead of using manned 4th/5th gen fighters, you're better off using mostly Valkyrie UCAVs as the primary platform to deliver SDBs as:

1. The UCAV only cost $2M, which is far cheaper than using a manned fighter.
2. The UCAV also has a much longer range than a manned fighter.

Of course, the same calculation applies to the Chinese Air Force and a Sino-SDB.
 

Blitzo

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SDBs are still relatively short-ranged.
Even the powered SPEAR-3 only has a range of 130km.
Closing to that range is still dicey given the likelihood of opposition at that sort of distance.

So instead of using manned 4th/5th gen fighters, you're better off using mostly Valkyrie UCAVs as the primary platform to deliver SDBs as:

1. The UCAV only cost $2M, which is far cheaper than using a manned fighter.
2. The UCAV also has a much longer range than a manned fighter.

Of course, the same calculation applies to the Chinese Air Force and a Sino-SDB.

Obviously if you have a stealthy UCAV to deliver munitions from internal weapon bays that would be desirable no matter what kind of munition it is, so at this stage given such aircraft are not even in service yet.

I also think it would be far more useful to discussions going forwards that we not use "$2 million dollars for a Valkyrie UCAV" as if it is some kind of concrete and confirmed cost/capability profile in the future.
The world is still at the relatively early stages of developing loyal wingman UCAVs and stealthy strike UCAVs, we don't know what the optimal balance of future capability and cost will be for different UCAV types and what sort of loadouts and flexibility the UCAVs will have.


And yes, it goes without saying that the use of SDB type weapons by manned aircraft (whether it's 4th gen fighters, or 5th gen fighters, or non-stealthy bombers, or stealth bombers) will be at the discretion of the specific battlespace environment.
However none of that takes away from thebenefits of SDB type weapons as I described in my previous post.
 

AndrewS

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Obviously if you have a stealthy UCAV to deliver munitions from internal weapon bays that would be desirable no matter what kind of munition it is, so at this stage given such aircraft are not even in service yet.

I also think it would be far more useful to discussions going forwards that we not use "$2 million dollars for a Valkyrie UCAV" as if it is some kind of concrete and confirmed cost/capability profile in the future.
The world is still at the relatively early stages of developing loyal wingman UCAVs and stealthy strike UCAVs, we don't know what the optimal balance of future capability and cost will be for different UCAV types and what sort of loadouts and flexibility the UCAVs will have.

If anything, I think the cost of UCAVs are going to drop signidicantly AND their autonomous capabilities are going to get way better with advances in algorithms and cheaper datalink electronics.

That's why I'm happy to use the current Valkyrie specifications as a benchmark.

Think about how expensive the first telecoms/computers/jet engines were, and the rapid improvements in cost and capability.
 
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