J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[kurutoga]

Okay I think we all misunderstood you with the FCS then. Did you mean J-20B/C ... will likely have a different set of FCS when newer engines are installed?

Just like any other software, FCS is a translation from input (sensors, pilot input, cetc) to output (control surfaces, display) based on a given configuration (weapon, fuel, weight distribution etc). So by changing the engine you are changing the configuration and some rules but the overall control surfaces are still the same. I am assuming most changes are not related to logic, but related to settings (configurations).

Just like when you switch the video card in yoru computer, you can install a new display driver, but you don't have to rewrite the OS.

TBH I don't think FCS is something complex or even hard for PLAAF, as many assume. Yes China did not have a very complex jet before, but China had reasonable level of experience with this type of software. In the civilian market, companies like DJI write high performance FCS for their drones. Indians are saying Ada (F22) is better than Realtime C++ (most Chinese jets). I remembered AVIC said they had to design a new realtime computer language for new FCS.

LRIP is something this forum borrowed from US Air Force so we sort of discuss experimental production of J-20. Much details are classified so as fans we can talk in any way each other can understand but nothing official.

 

[Inst]

I just mean that LRIP implies that the aircraft is in development hell. I don't see such problems with the J-20; the key bottleneck is currently the engines. EODAS will likely be a challenge as well, but it'll likely be ready by the time the WS-15 is ready. For the core interception mission, the J-20 doesn't need EODAS.

 

[jobjed]

I just mean that LRIP implies that the aircraft is in development hell. I don't see such problems with the J-20; the key bottleneck is currently the engines. EODAS will likely be a challenge as well, but it'll likely be ready by the time the WS-15 is ready. For the core interception mission, the J-20 doesn't need EODAS.

What's do you perceive as being wrong with the EODAS?

 

[Deino]

I have a bit of the feeling that indeed some here try to read too much into that term LRIP and indeed we should not compare it with the US or Western meaning of LRIP.

IMO it is simply „low rate initial production“ in the meaning the production rate is not working at full rate, what IMO only will happen if the engine issue is solved.

 

[ougoah]

Be silly to have half completed fighters in service. Otherwise we'd see J-11D, J-31 being introduced. EODAS should already be installed and 100% ready in the current form? May be improvements for future and add ons included since it is a modular system but J-20s flying in PLAAF today should already have those systems working. China doesn't really struggle much with electronics. It's materials science that require a lot more testing, trial and error, and just plain experimentation before breakthroughs happen and observations become useful. Understand the struggles in engine manufacturing but not EODAS. Although I haven't been up to date with this stuff. I just imagined the J-20s have EODAS (or their equivalent of the F-35's EODAS) in service

 

[kurutoga]

Be silly to have half completed fighters in service. Otherwise we'd see J-11D, J-31 being introduced. EODAS should already be installed and 100% ready in the current form? May be improvements for future and add ons included since it is a modular system but J-20s flying in PLAAF today should already have those systems working. China doesn't really struggle much with electronics. It's materials science that require a lot more testing, trial and error, and just plain experimentation before breakthroughs happen and observations become useful. Understand the struggles in engine manufacturing but not EODAS. Although I haven't been up to date with this stuff. I just imagined the J-20s have EODAS (or their equivalent of the F-35's EODAS) in service

Yes. The sensor and software should no longer be problems. It is not that China is so advanced, it is the sensor and software are both problems you can divide and conquer. In the end it is just a matter of time and investment that China gets it right. Also, we should be aware the sensors and software can both be updated later on, especially weapon integration can be improved.

The only major issue would be engines.

My feeling is the defense industry in the West is having too high profit margins. As public companies they also have shareholder pressure to continue to improve profit margin. Cost, and product cycle will eventually get out of control

 

[Inst]

EODAS was extremely challenging for the US to develop, and it stands to reason that the Chinese will take some time to get their EODAS to maturity. Moreover, it doesn't seem that the Chinese have developed a new helmet for EODAS, so it's likely that EODAS, if functional, is essentially a glorified early-warning system.

 

[kurutoga]

EODAS was extremely challenging for the US to develop, and it stands to reason that the Chinese will take some time to get their EODAS to maturity. Moreover, it doesn't seem that the Chinese have developed a new helmet for EODAS, so it's likely that EODAS, if functional, is essentially a glorified early-warning system.

Well, DAS by definition is a set of sensors and processing capability, not necessarily displayed in reality augmentation HMD. And it is a glorified detection and warning system indeed.

I don't think the sensors themselves will take a long time to produce (maybe they were exhibited before). In terms of software and integration, nobody knows by looking at the jet from the outside. No info so far on a F-35 style HMD either, maybe they do not use the same solution, maybe they do, for now we can only speculate.

The argument of it was hard for US so it must be harder for China, does not hold much water. Chinese technology can surpass US in some areas, the development speed can even be quicker, we just know too little to say for sure. Let's wait till things are declassified. Otherwise there is no point to argue since no facts can support the argument.

 

[Deino]

Guys .... J-20 !!!!???

 

[Twix101]

LRIP has nothing to do with an aircraft being troublesome. The F-35 case is an exception rather than the rule in this domain. Right now, J-20 is in LRIP stage, why ? Because PLAAF needs to do a few things before the J-20 becomes fully capable fighter aircraft:

• They need to rectify latest minor issues that weren't seen on the prototypes so the full pace production aircrafts are technically all-clear for PLAAF.
• They need to train the pilot instructors, it takes time to fully master the plane, and being able to teach others how to operate the plane.
• They need to refine the combat doctrine to meet with aircraft exact capabilities, which can be done with a large enough first batch of aircrafts.
  
• They need to have a complete and up-to-date training program to match with the previous outcomes underlined in the previous points.

Putting such an advanced aircraft into full service requires a lot of additional work even past prototype stage, PLAAF is showing us that they are taking maters seriously and will only put into FOC the bird when all cases are checked.