J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Air Force Brat]

The F-22's gun port is nearly impossible to identify if one didn't already know where it is.

There is no reason to think why J-20's could not be similar.

It not hard to see the F-22's gun ports, they have to be in one of two places in all practicality, and the J-20 does not have any ports that we can't identify... I know you love to argue, and like latenlazy you obviously think leaving the gun off the J-20 is a serious omission,,, so if it makes you feel better to think the J-20 has a "hidden gun port"?? help yourself, but those high definition primer bird shots leave nothing to the imagination, individual rivets stand out like the nose on your face, there has never been a visible gun port identified on any J-20, never!

of course I like to argue as well, but I'm done here, feel free to bring those primer bird photo's forward and outline the gun port?? prove us wrong...

 

[Blitzo]

It not hard to see the F-22's gun ports, they have to be in one of two places in all practicality, and the J-20 does not have any ports that we can't identify... I know you love to argue, and like latenlazy you obviously think leaving the gun off the J-20 is a serious omission,,, so if it makes you feel better to think the J-20 has a "hidden gun port"?? help yourself, but those high definition primer bird shots leave nothing to the imagination, individual rivets stand out like the nose on your face, there has never been a visible gun port identified on any J-20, never!

of course I like to argue as well, but I'm done here, feel free to bring those primer bird photo's forward and outline the gun port?? prove us wrong...

I disagree, it is very difficult to find F-22's gun ports.

Fundamentally the question is about whether or not it would be reasonable to be able to identify J-20's gun port if it had one, and I'm saying that it is completely unreasonable to assume that we should be able to ID J-20's gun port considering that on at least one other stealth fighter with a gun port (F-22) the gun port is very difficult to identify if you didn't already know what it was.

 

[kwaigonegin]

The F35 was handicapped by the fact that it’s designers never expected it to face hostile 5th gens. Certainly not as the mainstay air superiority fighters.

The J20 OTOH, was designed from the ground up as a counter against the F22.

Stealth not only reduced detection range, but also lowers the kill probability of BVR missiles, which overwhelming reply on radar guidance.

As such, in a stealth vs stealth encounter, there is every chance the battle will only be decided in WVR, as the BVR engagement window is greatly reduced by shorter detection ranges and KPs are greatly reduced on already small internal missile loads.

Once in WVR, each Raptor and J20 only carry a pair of IRAAMs, so combat persistence is going to be poor without a gun.

A gun is heavy, but nowhere like cripplingly so as to require the PLAAF to forgo it with all the limitations and disadvantages that would mean.

The J20 is underpowered without the WS15, but not to the extent that a few hundred kilos for a gun and ammo would make a critical difference. Especially not for AA weapons loads.

Even if the margins are so tight, they can easily compensate by loading the J20 with a few hundred litres less fuel than full tank capacity, and either live with the shorter range, or top up after take off with tankers.

A slight range hit is a far better trade off than not having a gun.

Careful .. ..... Your entire theory and argument is based on the assumption that the j20 does indeed have a gun. If so your argument would be valid and sound HOWEVER if it turns out that it does NOT have a gun one can only derive two conclusions.
That the designers and engineers of the J20 are complete idiots or ... well .. lol.

 

[latenlazy]

Careful .. ..... Your entire theory and argument is based on the assumption that the j20 does indeed have a gun. If so your argument would be valid and sound HOWEVER if it turns out that it does NOT have a gun one can only derive two conclusions.
That the designers and engineers of the J20 are complete idiots or ... well .. lol.

There are a lot of reasons why they may choose to include or exclude a gun in the J-20. The argument plawolf made may or may not be predicated on the right assumptions, but even if he’s wrong that doesn’t mean those are the only two conclusions one can derive.

 

[kwaigonegin]

There are a lot of reasons why they may choose to include or exclude a gun in the J-20. The argument plawolf made may or may not be predicated on the right assumptions, but even if he’s wrong that doesn’t mean those are the only two conclusions one can derive.

What would the other conclusions be?

 

[manqiangrexue]

It not hard to see the F-22's gun ports, they have to be in one of two places in all practicality, and the J-20 does not have any ports that we can't identify... I know you love to argue, and like latenlazy you obviously think leaving the gun off the J-20 is a serious omission,,, so if it makes you feel better to think the J-20 has a "hidden gun port"?? help yourself, but those high definition primer bird shots leave nothing to the imagination, individual rivets stand out like the nose on your face, there has never been a visible gun port identified on any J-20, never!

of course I like to argue as well, but I'm done here, feel free to bring those primer bird photo's forward and outline the gun port?? prove us wrong...

Most people know the words to this meme so no need to put them here...

They are saying that if you were not given the information that that panel housed the gun on the F-22, you would not know that's what it is just by looking externally. You keep saying, "But we already know that's the gun port because we've seen the gun so it should also be obvious on the J-20!" Yeah, only if they decided to show you the gun! Do you see how you're not quite getting it here?

 

[kwaigonegin]

I think what AFB is trying to say is even w/o confirmation, the starboard side panel on the F-22 is ‘far more obvious’ to indicate a greater possibility of a gun port then the ‘unknown’ panels on the J20.
But aside from photographic proof, even way back then there have been documentations, reports etc of the gun on the Raptor unlike the J20. She’s been flying for many years now and to my knowledge there have been zero reports, writeups, tests etc of any sort of gun.

 

[latenlazy]

What would the other conclusions be?

Maybe the current version has a gun. Maybe they have room for a gun but haven’t included it in this version to help reduce a bit of weight. Maybe they don’t have room for a gun but may choose to include one in a design iteration. Maybe the designers and engineers have a theory of the case for why the J-20 doesn’t need a gun and are confident they are right, or maybe they have the same theory of the case but are tentative about it so they’re excluding the gun to collect data before deciding on whether to install or design more space for a gun later. Maybe they think the J-20 only needs a gun some of the time so they’re planning to introduce a gun pod.

My point is that if the J-20 has a gun it doesn’t mean the predicate of plawolf’s argument is correct, and if the predicate of plawolf’s argument is correct but the J-20 doesn’t have a gun that doesn’t make the designers and engineers idiots. They may have just decided to go a different path to meet the same predicates as plawolf’s arguments, or they may have reached the same outcome as plawolf’s arguments through different predicates. The reasons for why the J-20 would or would not have a gun aren’t dictated by strict and exclusive binaries.

 

[latenlazy]

I think what AFB is trying to say is even w/o confirmation, the starboard side panel on the F-22 is ‘far more obvious’ to indicate a greater possibility of a gun port then the ‘unknown’ panels on the J20.
But aside from photographic proof, even way back then there have been documentations, reports etc of the gun on the Raptor unlike the J20. She’s been flying for many years now and to my knowledge there have been zero reports, writeups, tests etc of any sort of gun.

We still have zero or feeble knowledge about many things regarding the J-20 many years later. We don’t know what radar it uses. Never seen a definitive picture of it. We don’t have any idea what those different antennas along it’s edge surfaces are for. We don’t know what those different arpetures all around it’s body is for. Using the F-22’s very open documentation process to define expectations about the J-20’s features is building your argument on a flawed comparison.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Is it possible that they have not chosen to install a gun system yet? Yes it's possible.
What Not?
Perhaps weight?
Maybe they just don't like there current cannon or have yet to work out a mechanism to there liking. Or maybe it's there and just involves a larger door then I think.

I have argued this a few times in the past. Thus far nothing I have seen really feels right for a gun port just yet.
And yes that includes the spot often pointed to as it doesn't seem to line up for a clear line of fire.

Having a gun makes sense but not having one is just as valid. It depends on doctrine.

Whatever the case it seems that there are others who have started to doubt the gun.