J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
There has been ZERO pictures or verifible reports of the J20 ever having an internal gun, only pure conjecture and assumptions and since the gun is far from being some super secret weapon system I would have to go with the common assumption and common sense that it has NO internal cannon.
If it does, there is really no reason why we have not seen it already by now. There is no logical, tactical or strategic reason to purposely hide something so mundane.

Like how the F22’s gun is nice and easy to spot from the outside?

The only externally observable evidence of the F22’s gun is during firing.

There has been zero pictures or videos of the J20 firing anything. So of course there is no irrefutable evidence of the gun yet. That will come out once the PLAAF decides to release footage of the J20 shooting weapons.

The J20’s gun port has been identified a long time ago as on the left shoulder.

There is no logical reason for that port to be anything else. APU inlet can and should be well hidden from the front even when closed, just as on the F22.

The only logical reason to have such a port exposed to the front is if you need LOS for what is in it. That only leaves a gun port as the only opening that could not be designed to not face the front to minimise frontal RCS.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
I thought the lack of a gun in the J-20 is about weight considerations? o_O They've cut-down so much weight including the gun. They might add it when the WS-15 is ready.o_O
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
There is also the possibility that the PLA determined that a cannon would be contradictory to stealth.
F22 does have a gun as does F35A but F35B and C use a pod.
In the case of the F22 It's a 20mm intended for air to air close fighting. F22 was intended as a Air dominance machine able to fight from both BVR and to turn and burn like a flanker.
In the F35 It's a 25mm chosen not as a fall back against air targets (it still can) but for Close Air Support. It's meant to stand off a little.
As I just pointed out the F4 lacked a internal gun as do a number of interceptors which was the F4s original role another was the Mig 25,
Stealth fighters are a relivtivly new concept, but the point is two fold to reduce the effectiveness of ground or surface based air denial technology and in the Air to air role to close with and engage the enemy well he is unawares. Inessence eliminate his potential to observe, orient, decide, and act against you.
Like changing all the pieces on a chess board in your favor well he is away.
For fighters however a auto cannon is a close in engagement weapon. The only reason to use it is if you and the enemy have closed in and are in a traditional dog fight. But as proven Stealthy characteristics don't nessisarily work well in a dog fight. At less then 10 Miles your radar signature mitigation is not effective. If you close to that ramge to gun someone they will know they are in a dogfight and react.
As such for a stealth or any modern fighter the gun in air to air is a last resort. Only used if everything else has been used or failed.

It's removal or omission is not entirely a foolish choice in fact the British tried to do that with Typhoon only to keep it as it balanced the weight.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
In the case of the F22 It's a 20mm intended for air to air close fighting. F22 was intended as a Air dominance machine able to fight from both BVR and to turn and burn like a flanker.
Guess what the J-20 is (hint: read bolded).
For fighters however a auto cannon is a close in engagement weapon. The only reason to use it is if you and the enemy have closed in and are in a traditional dog fight. But as proven Stealthy characteristics don't nessisarily work well in a dog fight. At less then 10 Miles your radar signature mitigation is not effective. If you close to that ramge to gun someone they will know they are in a dogfight and react.
As such for a stealth or any modern fighter the gun in air to air is a last resort. Only used if everything else has been used or failed.
By this argument the F-22 should not have a cannon, yet it does.
It's removal or omission is not entirely a foolish choice in fact the British tried to do that with Typhoon only to keep it as it balanced the weight.
British failures have no bearing on China.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Guess what the J-20 is (hint: read bolded).
guess what there are frigates that are classed as destroyers, Carriers as Destroyers, The first Stealth Bomber was called a stealth fighter.
You can call it what you will. It's clearly for Air to Air but not nessisarily closing in air to air.

By this argument the F-22 should not have a cannon, yet it does.
After the F4 the USAF decided all its future fighters would have a gun system. That's doctrine. Actual use of that gun in air to air?

The last air to air gun kill was a A10 That unleashed the Brrrrrt on a Iraqi Hind D in the first gulf war.

For an Air superiority fighter? F15 by the IDF 1979.
British failures have no bearing on China.
Failure? Really?
They still ended up with it and loading it. Yet the main job is not some Topgun style Hollywood BS but instead laying down air to ground fire.

Skipping the cannon is a reasonable choice.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
guess what there are frigates that are classed as destroyers, Carriers as Destroyers, The first Stealth Bomber was called a stealth fighter.
You can call it what you will. It's clearly for Air to Air but not nessisarily closing in air to air.
Then why was so much emphasis put on high alpha capabilities for the design?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
There is also the possibility that the PLA determined that a cannon would be contradictory to stealth.
F22 does have a gun as does F35A but F35B and C use a pod.
In the case of the F22 It's a 20mm intended for air to air close fighting. F22 was intended as a Air dominance machine able to fight from both BVR and to turn and burn like a flanker.
In the F35 It's a 25mm chosen not as a fall back against air targets (it still can) but for Close Air Support. It's meant to stand off a little.
As I just pointed out the F4 lacked a internal gun as do a number of interceptors which was the F4s original role another was the Mig 25,
Stealth fighters are a relivtivly new concept, but the point is two fold to reduce the effectiveness of ground or surface based air denial technology and in the Air to air role to close with and engage the enemy well he is unawares. Inessence eliminate his potential to observe, orient, decide, and act against you.
Like changing all the pieces on a chess board in your favor well he is away.
For fighters however a auto cannon is a close in engagement weapon. The only reason to use it is if you and the enemy have closed in and are in a traditional dog fight. But as proven Stealthy characteristics don't nessisarily work well in a dog fight. At less then 10 Miles your radar signature mitigation is not effective. If you close to that ramge to gun someone they will know they are in a dogfight and react.
As such for a stealth or any modern fighter the gun in air to air is a last resort. Only used if everything else has been used or failed.

It's removal or omission is not entirely a foolish choice in fact the British tried to do that with Typhoon only to keep it as it balanced the weight.

The F35 was handicapped by the fact that it’s designers never expected it to face hostile 5th gens. Certainly not as the mainstay air superiority fighters.

The J20 OTOH, was designed from the ground up as a counter against the F22.

Stealth not only reduced detection range, but also lowers the kill probability of BVR missiles, which overwhelming reply on radar guidance.

As such, in a stealth vs stealth encounter, there is every chance the battle will only be decided in WVR, as the BVR engagement window is greatly reduced by shorter detection ranges and KPs are greatly reduced on already small internal missile loads.

Once in WVR, each Raptor and J20 only carry a pair of IRAAMs, so combat persistence is going to be poor without a gun.

A gun is heavy, but nowhere like cripplingly so as to require the PLAAF to forgo it with all the limitations and disadvantages that would mean.

The J20 is underpowered without the WS15, but not to the extent that a few hundred kilos for a gun and ammo would make a critical difference. Especially not for AA weapons loads.

Even if the margins are so tight, they can easily compensate by loading the J20 with a few hundred litres less fuel than full tank capacity, and either live with the shorter range, or top up after take off with tankers.

A slight range hit is a far better trade off than not having a gun.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Then why was so much emphasis put on high alpha capabilities for the design?
Still doesn't mean there is need for a gun. Even if they did place a premium on maneuver you still need to line up for a IR missile kill.
The F35 was handicapped by the fact that it’s designers never expected it to face hostile 5th gens. Certainly not as the mainstay air superiority fighters.
That's your assumption. F35 was designed to be partnered with F22. Much like how F15 and F16 are. One for Air superiority the other for lesser duties. It can still engage another fifth gen it's just going to place more of a premium on sensors and range.
The J20 OTOH, was designed from the ground up as a counter against the F22.
Yes to a degree but counter doesn't nessisarily mean mirror in performance. It's not a raptor killer it's a all round killer with stealth. Just because it could lack a gun doesn't nessisarily mean it's not a contender.
Stealth not only reduced detection range, but also lowers the kill probability of BVR missiles, which overwhelming reply on radar guidance
Wow their sailor.
I am well aware that there is reduced BVR against a stealth but BVR is not the end all be all that only gives to knife fights in phone booths. You have that seldom mentioned NVR the sweet spot where the radar return is enough to work with and IRST is working to.
And remember there is no law that says IR missiles are the only option radar guided longer range missiles are just as good for NVR and WVR against a fifth gen as they are in BVR against a fourth gen.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Four J-20s escorting Y-20 to Zhuhai.

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aGbhNNh.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I thought the lack of a gun in the J-20 is about weight considerations? o_O They've cut-down so much weight including the gun. They might add it when the WS-15 is ready.o_O

I've heard nothing along those lines.

More importantly I don't think it is anywhere near confirmed that J-20 does not have a gun
 
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