J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Tirdent]

I don't think he was referring to the TVC version of the WS-10 when he said 18 petals -> WS-10.

Which would be in contradiction to "anything else -> WS-15", though. Unless:

a) the J-10 TVC nozzle has 16 petals (so "16 petals -> AL-31F" isn't quite true, but the statement that anything that isn't 16 or 18 means WS-15 holds)
b) the J-10 TVC nozzle and the WS-15 nozzle are one and the same (so externally there's no difference in aircraft appearance) - q.e.d.

Sorry for the gratuitous bullet points, but I could not resist

I don't think A is out of the question, and Gongke's comments alone don't disqualify it as possible, but as I've mentioned in my earlier replies I have other reasons for doubting this to be the case. B, I hope I've already clarified as a misunderstanding of what he was saying. I'm not sure how you arrived at C though...a TVC J-20, unless the drawing is wrong, almost certainly exists now (but with the WS-10, not the WS-15), and at least based on Gongke's comment TVC for the WS-15 that's meant to be installed on the J-20 also very much exists.

Well, if we discount option a) in my previous post, somebody inevitably made a mistake of a kind - either gongke or the cartoonist. They can't then both be completely right, because their statements are mutually exclusive at face value.

 

[latenlazy]

Which would be in contradiction to "anything else -> WS-15", though. Unless:

a) the J-10 TVC nozzle has 16 petals (so "16 petals -> AL-31F" isn't quite true, but the statement that anything that isn't 16 or 18 means WS-15 holds)
b) the J-10 TVC nozzle and the WS-15 nozzle are one and the same (so externally there's no difference in aircraft appearance) - q.e.d.

Sorry for the gratuitous bullet points, but I could not resist

I like bullet points. If you haven’t noticed yet I employ them a lot too.

He doesn’t actually say “anything else = WS-15”. What he said was AL-31F is 16 petals, WS-10 is 18 petals, if you don’t count wrong you’ll counting will let you know it’s the [WS-]15.

Well, if we discount option a) in my previous post, somebody inevitably made a mistake of a kind - either gongke or the cartoonist. They can't then both be completely right, because their statements are mutually exclusive at face value.

How are their statements mutually exclusive?

 

[Tirdent]

He doesn’t actually say “anything else = WS-15”. What he said was AL-31F is 16 petals, WS-10 is 18 petals, if you don’t count wrong you’ll counting will let you know it’s the [WS-]15.

Isn't that equivalent within the scope of this discussion though? It suggests you can reliably identify the WS-15 by exclusion in this manner.

How are their statements mutually exclusive?

Again, provided that the TVC nozzles on the J-10 and J-20 are not the same, they aren't. Failing that however, either the TVC J-20 is actually a case of mistaken identity (so the cartoon is wrong), or gongke's comment is "wrong" (inaccurate, if you prefer) in one of the ways described in my previous reply.

 

[Inst]

@SDWatcher, I must say that it is very wrong to say Chinese language does not use grammar. Chinese language has its OWN grammar that is different from the Indo-European languages. That difference is not "no grammar" but different. Chinese language is analytical language, instead of using different word tenses and forms, Chinese use different qualifying words. In this case, Chinese is very unique among all languages on the planet.

Also you need to be aware that, being a native speaker does not mean you know the language from a linguistic ground. For example, many native English speakers have no clue why they speak in a certain order and using certain tense, meaning they don't know that they are following or making mistakes of English grammar. On the contrary, foreigners who studied English as second language could be more accurate in English grammar even though they are less capable in speaking because of their smaller vocabulary and phrases.

Actually, English is also an analytic language, but Chinese is more analytic than English. Chinese is mostly uninflected, in that words don't change morphology to imply tense or add additional meaning, although some dialects have a little bit of inflection. And Chinese is not unique as an analytic language; IIRC, Malay and Vietnamese are also analytic languages.

 

[Inst]

@Tirdent: Actually, if we're going to be legalistic and engaged in a pedantic argument, Gongke is already wrong.

Put another way, according to Gongke, the AL-31 has 16 petals, the WS-10 has 18 petals. But we saw the J-10B with a 15 petal nozzle. By implication, the J-10B could not have been flying a WS-10 or AL-31, and must have been flying a WS-15.

But the J-10B is a single-engine fighter, and the WS-15 is not a mature engine reliable enough for a single-engine fighter. Moreover, additional sources suggest that the J-10B was involved in testing the nozzle, not a new engine.

===

More importantly, what happens if on the next 1/11, a J-20 takes to the air with two 15-petal TVC nozzles? How are we supposed to parse this? The parsimonious answer is that the J-20 is running two WS-10s with TVC, but according to Gongke, we can conclude it's the WS-15 instead.

 

[Deino]

Can we finally come back to the topic??

Once again ... ... and now as a final warning.

 

[Tirdent]

@Tirdent: Actually, if we're going to be legalistic and engaged in a pedantic argument, Gongke is already wrong.

Put another way, according to Gongke, the AL-31 has 16 petals, the WS-10 has 18 petals. But we saw the J-10B with a 15 petal nozzle. By implication, the J-10B could not have been flying a WS-10 or AL-31, and must have been flying a WS-15.

Nah - I think it's clear that his comments refer strictly to engines as installed in the J-20, his statement has no implications for other aircraft. What you suggest is not a tenable extrapolation IMHO - that not all WS-10 nozzles are created equal depending on airframe application is self-evident.

 

[Inst]

OT, take it to a new thread, please.

 

[by78]

I hope for a J-20 on static display at this year's Zhuhai airshow.

(1622 x 1080)

 

[Deino]

I hope for a J-20 on static display at this year's Zhuhai airshow.

(1622 x 1080)

Me too ....